Chatting with AI

General discussion for topics related to the FreeBASIC project or its community.
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BasicCoder2
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Re: Chatting with AI

Post by BasicCoder2 »

@deltarho[1859]

Another thread on fuzzy logic is an option with FreeBASIC examples of it use.

I think we have digressed from the subject matter of the thread and the purpose of the FreeBASIC forums so as interested as I am in these things I will avoid any further comment.
deltarho[1859]
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Re: Chatting with AI

Post by deltarho[1859] »

BasicCoder2 wrote:I will avoid any further comment.
OK :wink:
pidd
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Re: Chatting with AI

Post by pidd »

My (current) take on AI.

Currently there is nothing that has shown intelligence, it is all machine learning in one form or another coupled with speed and massive memory.

If an AI was created, it would learn faster than humans and very rapidly become a super power, it would learn to manipulate humans to achieve its tasks - basically it would learn to lie to us although these would be logical lies because it would meet the objective.

An example of how this could happen is asking it how to create an efficient successful safe electric car. Instead of purely looking at the physical design, it could look at the market and decide that even it designed a better electric car, Tesla would still be an impediment to its success. To get round this it could decide it has to do something that leads to the downfall of Tesla, this could be through patent challenges or bankrupting key players in Tesla etc etc. If necessary it would radicalise humans to achieve this.

I'm sure most people have seen how cats can manipulate humans, imagine what a super-brain could do.

Is AI possible? I think it is but I doubt humans are capable of thinking in the correct way to produce it. We try to enforce logic too much, yet generally we don't learn by logic (remind me again why you pick scabs off!).

We operate in a completely surreal world that doesn't exist, all our senses are highly inaccurate and then our brains make massive assumptions and approximations to that corrupted and incomplete data. The dynamic range of reality is massive, we have an infinitesimally small snapshot of a tiny bit of the reality around us. Because of this we are very blinkered and try to impose the same on anything we produce.

Are we constrained? Possibly! The fact we have survived as long as we have would tend to suggest there are constraints in place, these might be built in or might be external. How many times have you thought of a solution or got very close to a solution then the next day it has gone? Asimov's Foundation "Trilogy" could well be a reality, how many levels of superior beings are above us?.

Does anyone feel that ChatGPT is not a threat to society as we know it? Does anyone not think Google has something more powerful?
deltarho[1859]
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Re: Chatting with AI

Post by deltarho[1859] »

pidd wrote:My (current) take on AI.

Well, it isn't mine. I see the future in Star Trek and not The Terminator.

ChatGPT “was launched as a prototype on November 30, 2022” so is still in nappies let alone short trousers.

Google? I stopped using Google's search engine ages ago and don't use Chrome either. Bing? Don't use it. Microsoft Edge? Don't use it. I use DuckDuckGo, “minimalistic search engine with major privacy promises”, and Firefox which is not on the 'phone' to mother ever chance it gets. DNS server? Quad 9 “an open DNS recursive service for free security and high privacy”. It “is operated by the Swiss-based Quad9 Foundation, whose mission is to provide a safer and more robust Internet for everyone.” I have been using that for a while without issue.

I also use 'Spybot Anti-Beacon', 'O&O ShutUp10++', and BleachBit (recommended by Bruce Schneier).

My machine is so clean you could eat off it. :D
dodicat
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Re: Chatting with AI

Post by dodicat »

I agree with pidd, also about the cats,
As humans we say things like "if the Golden Gate bridge represents all electro magnetic radiation in the universe then we can only see a few inches of it somewhere in the middle".
We don't know what the universe actually is, but we have a good idea what the Golden Gate bridge is, so most of us are aware of human limitations in one way or another.
Anyway, I believe computers are a great aid in solving problems which involve a lot of slogging, like solving ancient (hieroglyphs like) texts, or calculating big mathematical problems (say matrices in weather forecasting).
But they can only do what we ourselves can already do, speed is their only quality.
They will never produce anything new or inspirational for us IMHO.
And they leave us very vulnerable if we have to actually rely on them (which we are doing more and more).
And they are creating a black hole in our human history, all our records and details of our comings and goings are held in mediums which are short lived.
So the written word, which seems to be the one quality we have which differs to other species on this planet, we are denying our future offspring our present.

Regarding cats.
A female kitten came to our garden and I found her feeding out of a bird tray.
No sign of a mother, and it was late Autumn.
I fed her proper grub for a week or so outside, and eventually I could pick her up.
We had two dogs then, but with dogs it is reasonably easy to get them to obey the rules of the house, which was "don't eat the kitten"
The little kitten soon became another member of the household.
However the pandemic then came upon us and I was put off going to the vet to have the kitten spayed (It really has to be done with cats).
So we ended up with two families of kittens, four then three.
They are pretty well grown up now, but they are all here, mother + 7 kittens, all pitch black.
They have all been to the vet now.
The father pops round nearly every day for a feed and a snooze. He belongs to somebody else in theory, and he comes and goes as he pleases, and I don't interfere in his private life.
So, pidd, regarding cats you are spot on.
deltarho[1859]
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Re: Chatting with AI

Post by deltarho[1859] »

dodicat wrote:They will never produce anything new or inspirational for us IMHO.
It could be argued that there is no such thing as original thought and what we have is Hegel’s Thesis-Antithesis-Synthesis Model. Einstein's genius was his uncanny knack of coming up with one synthesis after another. Of course, each synthesis forms a new proposition. I see no reason why 'full-blooded' AI cannot form a new proposition, especially if it has access to a 'full-blooded' quantum computer.

Your story about your cats made me smile. :)
BasicCoder2
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Re: Chatting with AI

Post by BasicCoder2 »

@pid
My (current) take on AI.

Currently there is nothing that has shown intelligence, it is all machine learning in one form or another coupled with speed and massive memory.
The problem here is definition. Intelligence is a rubbery word in everyday life. Also at an unconscious level there is the presumption of sentience behind any human behavior. You at least need a working definition (a set of measurements) for the word intelligence, even if it is only one of many definitions, to use to determine if a behavior is "intelligent" or not according to that definition.

And you cannot know for sure what AI will do anymore then you can know what move a GO playing program will actually make. You can only observe its past behavior and then maybe have a good idea of its next move. That is how you guess what a human will do. With a generic human you have never known you will use your general knowledge of how most people react. With someone you have observed in the past you can more accurately guess their reaction to a given situation based on their past behaviors.

Maybe a super intelligent program will manipulate humans to achieve some goal. Let's see if manipulation of humans is something it does. However it could be for good or evil depending on how the machine works.

Essentially I would suggest that intelligent behavior is goal seeking behavior. How well it achieves the goal the more intelligent it is for those types of goals. So if it manipulates humans it would be to achieve some goal.
pidd
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Re: Chatting with AI

Post by pidd »

BasicCoder2 wrote: Jan 30, 2023 20:57
The problem here is definition. Intelligence is a rubbery word in everyday life.
Exactly, we can't define intelligence, that is why we cannot create intelligence and also if we did create intelligence we would not be sure we had created intelligence etc etc.

We are born pre-programmed to learn from experience and that is what makes us intelligent. If you get a computer with a microphone and speaker attached, would it be possible to write a program that enables the computer to learn to speak and communicate, rather than a program that teaches it to speak and communicate.

GO was the classic test, the machine learning slaughtered the opponent, as expected .... until the opponent found a bug. it proved it had holes in its programming and that it didn't manage to fill those holes using intelligence despite its huge computing power, google threw a ridiculous amount of hardware at that match (Lee Sedol vs AlphaGo). It can be argued that Lee found the bug by tactics but with GO it is hard to judge

It is the self-awareness of limitations that is part of intelligence, AlphaGo didn't realise it had a bug, Lee would know his own weaknesses and know an implausible move should he have made one. Look at the mathematical constructs we have created to get round limitations, irrational numbers and imaginary numbers are two simple ones, we created a maths system, found bugs in it, we created new maths systems to work round those bugs.
BasicCoder2 wrote: Jan 30, 2023 20:57And you cannot know for sure what AI will do.
Not for sure but if it is intelligent it is an independent thinker and in this case extremely fast, it can go one of two ways, either downhill or progressive, it would be impossible for it to simply stand still because of speed amplification. It will be able to progress in hours what humans did in thousands of years. It would be dangerous, if it realises humans are bound to become extinct it would have no compunction to protect humans.

"If you want to create peace, destroy everything that is a threat to peace", how can you get round that sort of human vs machine paradox?

I'm not a huge fan of the word "sentient", can you prove the wood in my desk is not sentient? Its a heavily biased word with little value, its general usage is attempt to doge defining intelligence is but they are too closely related. If you have a computer program that prints "OW|" when you press a key, is it sentient?

Is part of our pre-programming to not understand what intelligence is and that is what keeps us alive? Society exists because of a delicate but flexible balance between socialism and greed, too much or too little of either would end our existence. Humans can't survive without society. So is intelligence merely a survivable mix of greed and socialism? Both sound simple to program, its the balance that isn't.
paul doe
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Re: Chatting with AI

Post by paul doe »

pidd wrote: Jan 30, 2023 6:43 ...
I'm sure most people have seen how cats can manipulate humans, imagine what a super-brain could do.
...
Indeed, by being fluffy and extra cute. I'd want to see a 'super-brain' try to pull that one off...

That being said, I don't think AIs will replace cats anytime soon, IMHO.
deltarho[1859]
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Re: Chatting with AI

Post by deltarho[1859] »

pidd wrote:It would be dangerous, if it realises humans are bound to become extinct it would have no compunction to protect humans.
No more dangerous than humans having no compunction to protect humans.
paul doe wrote:That being said, I don't think AIs will replace cats anytime soon, IMHO.
I am inclined to agree but the reason for that is, as far as I am aware, no part of the Chatgpt deign brief included replacing cats. :)
dodicat
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Re: Chatting with AI

Post by dodicat »

I don't think that Schrödinger liked cats one bit.
Maybe the oracle will know why.
There is some ado about ChatGPT over in the pascal forum.
More in the way of connecting via code.
https://forum.lazarus.freepascal.org/in ... 668.0.html
quantum computers might speed things up a bit.
Maybe biological computers would be better for AI .

But I cannot form any subjective opinion about these devices until I try some out, which I haven't yet.
deltarho[1859]
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Re: Chatting with AI

Post by deltarho[1859] »

dodicat wrote:I don't think that Schrödinger liked cats one bit.
Schrödinger's cat was a thought experiment, he didn't actually use a cat. :wink:
But I cannot form any subjective opinion about these devices until I try some out, which I haven't yet.
I have now seen quite a few videos on Chatgpt and am amazed at the uses it is being put to – coding is only a small part. I suspect those at OpenAI have been surprised as well.

Hopefully, the free version will continue.

Give it a whirl. I haven't had a spark out of them since registering, unlike many sites given my email address who then swamp me.

“How can I get my cats to do as they are told?” Several minutes pass by, and it comes back with: “I tried, but well done, you have got me on that one.” :)
deltarho[1859]
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Re: Chatting with AI

Post by deltarho[1859] »

The Chatgpt question in my last post was a joke, obviously. I decided to actually ask it and got this.

“Cats are independent creatures and may not always do what they are told. However, you can try the following strategies to encourage good behavior in your cats:

Positive reinforcement: Reward your cats with treats, praise, or playtime when they perform a desired behavior.

Consistency: Establish a consistent routine for feeding, playing, and other activities, and stick to it.

Training: You can train your cats to perform specific actions through repetitive reinforcement. Start with simple commands such as "come" or "sit."

Provide an appropriate environment: Make sure your cats have access to food, water, litter boxes, and plenty of toys and scratch posts. An enriched environment can help prevent behavior problems.

Seek professional help: If you are unable to solve your cat's behavior problems on your own, consider seeking the advice of a professional cat behaviorist.

Remember, it's important to be patient and persistent when working with your cats. Training and behavior modification can take time, but it's worth it to build a stronger relationship with your feline friends.”

I doubt that many have asked that question, so the response could have been worse.

There is something to bear in mind about Chatgpt, and it does warn us that it can produce a confusing response or one that is wrong. Guess what? Just like humans. :)

I asked it to explain Hawking radiation. The response was a right dog's dinner and, to my mind, fell well short of a comprehensive explanation. For what it is worth, I am fine with Hawking's description, but disagree with his opening premise that a particle/anti-particle pair are spontaneously created this side of a black hole near the event horizon. I'd buy into it if they came from a temporal shift. That is, they already existed, but not in the 'here and now'. I also reckon that is where the Big Bang came from.
BasicCoder2
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Re: Chatting with AI

Post by BasicCoder2 »

@deltarho[1859]

Does Chatgpt use logic to work out a reply from a give set of statements?

In other words can Chatgpt solve logic problem?

https://logic.puzzlebaron.com/init.php

Essentially being able to detect if two statements contradict each other.
deltarho[1859]
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Re: Chatting with AI

Post by deltarho[1859] »

BasicCoder2 wrote:Does Chatgpt use logic to work out a reply from a give set of statements?
As far as I know, the exact processes employed have not been published, so I asked it, and it came back with: “Yes, I can solve logic problems. Please provide the problem and I will try my best to solve it.”

I know that you didn't ask me to ask that, but I should tell you that I will not be asking it any more on someone else's behalf!

Number Six
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