Hey y'all, I've been outta action from this scene for awhile, but now you're gonna have to put up with me for a couple of days. :) Blame Lachie. ;)
Two things: one, at Lachie's request, I've been conceptualizing a generic 2D platformer game engine in FB .23. Curious to know if anyone outside of us two crazies would use it. Second of all, I remember there being some talk 'round these parts at one time about the licensing of binaries generated by the compiler, and I seem to remember that the license only applies to the compiler itself, not to generated binaries. Reason being is because I've taken on a joint production (no, we're not growing green stuff, at least not *that* kind of green stuff) that is likely to go commercial, and want to make sure all the eggs are in one basket ahead of time. Decided to use FB for it since I can easily put it on Linux as well as Windows... I hate messing with gcc for complex graphical library stuffs, and XNA isn't natively supported in Linux (monoxna is still pretty weaksauce).
Did ya miss me? :P New stuff. :)
Re: Did ya miss me? :P New stuff. :)
Ive been thinking about creating a graphical mud....The idea being is that if its multiplayer/user it will = multi interest
http://www.freebasic.net/forum/viewtopi ... 17&t=20013
If a game engine is simple to use and make maps / modpacks for then people are more likely to play around with it, adding their graphics, sounds, AI scripts what have you. Eg 'Lunar lander game ' engine for example. Simple line graphics, but lots of gravity aided fun. It would be a crack to design crazy maps for it.
I started work on a graphical chess gui a while back. If there was a chess gui.exe that could read in moves of two chessbrainengine.exes then people could focus on coding the chess engine rather than having to write their own gui wich cannot communicate or play against anyone elses chessbrainengine. ( my idea was to have the moves read in and exported via .txt files, thus avoiding complications with threads and pipes. It also enables LAN play)
Complexity kills creativity. So a game engines job is to reduce that complexity to a minimum.
ref Curious to know if anyone outside of us two crazies would use it.
There are so many good commercial games out there already that are easy to mod/write maps for so understandably most peoples creative energies tend to get spent their. There must be a 1001 RPGs created with the Age of Kings RTS engine alone....so there is no lack of interest at this level of modification, just a lack of FreeBASIC games worth while modding. For every #1 coder there are a dozens enthusiastic tweakers and mod'ers.
If a FreeBASIC game engine was really good ( but that's a lot of work in itself ) then there would be a great deal of interest at least at the level of modding & map making AI scripting, gfx/sfx & sprite creation.
Remember, Its that second tier of mod'ers and tweakers that haul a game engine out of the shadows breathe it eternal life
http://www.freebasic.net/forum/viewtopi ... 17&t=20013
If a game engine is simple to use and make maps / modpacks for then people are more likely to play around with it, adding their graphics, sounds, AI scripts what have you. Eg 'Lunar lander game ' engine for example. Simple line graphics, but lots of gravity aided fun. It would be a crack to design crazy maps for it.
I started work on a graphical chess gui a while back. If there was a chess gui.exe that could read in moves of two chessbrainengine.exes then people could focus on coding the chess engine rather than having to write their own gui wich cannot communicate or play against anyone elses chessbrainengine. ( my idea was to have the moves read in and exported via .txt files, thus avoiding complications with threads and pipes. It also enables LAN play)
Complexity kills creativity. So a game engines job is to reduce that complexity to a minimum.
ref Curious to know if anyone outside of us two crazies would use it.
There are so many good commercial games out there already that are easy to mod/write maps for so understandably most peoples creative energies tend to get spent their. There must be a 1001 RPGs created with the Age of Kings RTS engine alone....so there is no lack of interest at this level of modification, just a lack of FreeBASIC games worth while modding. For every #1 coder there are a dozens enthusiastic tweakers and mod'ers.
If a FreeBASIC game engine was really good ( but that's a lot of work in itself ) then there would be a great deal of interest at least at the level of modding & map making AI scripting, gfx/sfx & sprite creation.
Remember, Its that second tier of mod'ers and tweakers that haul a game engine out of the shadows breathe it eternal life
Last edited by TESLACOIL on Jun 23, 2012 11:54, edited 1 time in total.
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Lachie Dazdarian
- Posts: 2338
- Joined: May 31, 2005 9:59
- Location: Croatia
- Contact:
Re: Did ya miss me? :P New stuff. :)
Hrm, right.
Anyway Dave, this should answer your question: http://www.freebasic.net/forum/viewtopi ... ence+lillo
I don't think you should really worry about that. Well, I personally wouldn't. But I've seen commercial FB games (http://iceroyds.darkphear.com/) and it doesn't seem to worry those people.
I think a good FB platform engine would be awesome. It's needed in our community more than one might guess. Making a good platform engine from scratch is a tricky thing, especially if you want to feature slopes and stuff like that, not only blocks. I personally gave up once or twice precisely because I was unable to code a satisfactory platform engine. Curious what you might deliver.
Anyway Dave, this should answer your question: http://www.freebasic.net/forum/viewtopi ... ence+lillo
I don't think you should really worry about that. Well, I personally wouldn't. But I've seen commercial FB games (http://iceroyds.darkphear.com/) and it doesn't seem to worry those people.
I think a good FB platform engine would be awesome. It's needed in our community more than one might guess. Making a good platform engine from scratch is a tricky thing, especially if you want to feature slopes and stuff like that, not only blocks. I personally gave up once or twice precisely because I was unable to code a satisfactory platform engine. Curious what you might deliver.
Re: Did ya miss me? :P New stuff. :)
It need not be a platform engine. Though that is one category. Any good engine will attract user interest, that's the key
Code development wise a 2d street fighter is very doable, & epic fun in its own way ( Think FreeBASIC Gladiator )
Its basically two giant hinged sprites sliding back and forth. While streetfighter 2d may not be the first game that springs to mind it is both easy to code & very easy to mod. In a nutshell the fun factor (ROI) is very high. From the perspective of a modder or code tweaker it has a lot of potential as well as being a bit of daft fun....ever noticed how everyone just ends up playing Tekken on the playstation lol ?
Lots of good things going for it, especially the fact that its fairly easy to code up as a game engine. We are talking just a couple of weeks of work to magic up a solid bug free 2d street-fighter engine not months of hard slog. The ease of AI scripting + competitive arena bring a multiplayer element to a single player game.
A sprite based version of this would make for a good game engine that would engage the wider community
It shouldn't be too hard to out do the original either
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sS-r4qT16DQ
Golden axe 'weapon' style combat adding skill, variety & creativity to the gameplay......Free-Basic Gladiator anyone ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hU6E8ZuTMxA
Check list
Backdrop mod'ing trivial
Character Dressing & ornamentation easy.
Great potential for AI scripting. AI vs AI fights. AI Fighter league and high score table
Virtually everything on screen is mod-able. Health bar Template, Fonts used for scores.
Sound effects simple to rustle up
The reason why i think Free-Basic Gladiator is a big win is that everyone can take part and create a character. Pick a name, pick a warrior, pick a fight style, shield, weapon, special power and AI script. Enter name, taunt, death cry and away you go. For those wanting to go deeper then AI scripting or creating new 'warriors' from a matchstick man template is also possible. Lots of eye and ear candy for those into graphics and audio. Make a cool looking sword and every one will be fighting with it.
I can envision a Roman amphitheater as a back drop, in the stands are our personal avatars that cheer wave and boo according to their owners scripts. In the Emperors box the game-engine creator raises a fist....is it thumbs up or thumbs down. Do the tigers get lunch early lol ? Centre stage are two AI warriors, a raised axe glinting in the sunlight.
The reason why ' The Sims ' is the best selling game on the planet is that everyone from grandma to ace coder has something of value to contribute.
Code development wise a 2d street fighter is very doable, & epic fun in its own way ( Think FreeBASIC Gladiator )
Its basically two giant hinged sprites sliding back and forth. While streetfighter 2d may not be the first game that springs to mind it is both easy to code & very easy to mod. In a nutshell the fun factor (ROI) is very high. From the perspective of a modder or code tweaker it has a lot of potential as well as being a bit of daft fun....ever noticed how everyone just ends up playing Tekken on the playstation lol ?
Lots of good things going for it, especially the fact that its fairly easy to code up as a game engine. We are talking just a couple of weeks of work to magic up a solid bug free 2d street-fighter engine not months of hard slog. The ease of AI scripting + competitive arena bring a multiplayer element to a single player game.
A sprite based version of this would make for a good game engine that would engage the wider community
It shouldn't be too hard to out do the original either
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sS-r4qT16DQ
Golden axe 'weapon' style combat adding skill, variety & creativity to the gameplay......Free-Basic Gladiator anyone ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hU6E8ZuTMxA
Check list
Backdrop mod'ing trivial
Character Dressing & ornamentation easy.
Great potential for AI scripting. AI vs AI fights. AI Fighter league and high score table
Virtually everything on screen is mod-able. Health bar Template, Fonts used for scores.
Sound effects simple to rustle up
The reason why i think Free-Basic Gladiator is a big win is that everyone can take part and create a character. Pick a name, pick a warrior, pick a fight style, shield, weapon, special power and AI script. Enter name, taunt, death cry and away you go. For those wanting to go deeper then AI scripting or creating new 'warriors' from a matchstick man template is also possible. Lots of eye and ear candy for those into graphics and audio. Make a cool looking sword and every one will be fighting with it.
I can envision a Roman amphitheater as a back drop, in the stands are our personal avatars that cheer wave and boo according to their owners scripts. In the Emperors box the game-engine creator raises a fist....is it thumbs up or thumbs down. Do the tigers get lunch early lol ? Centre stage are two AI warriors, a raised axe glinting in the sunlight.
The reason why ' The Sims ' is the best selling game on the planet is that everyone from grandma to ace coder has something of value to contribute.
Re: Did ya miss me? :P New stuff. :)
Hah, looks like I even responded in that thread, Lachie... how the high and mighty forget, eh? :P lol :)
OK so all's good on the license front. This'll be closed source and will likely be pirated anyway.
As for the platform engine, I'm going to start from scratch. I haven't decided yet, but I may make a map editor for it as well... either that or just support mappy's format. Slopes aren't a problem at all. I learned a ton of new platformer techniques while working on the Monolith project so I'll implement them into this.
Now, back to work. :D
OK so all's good on the license front. This'll be closed source and will likely be pirated anyway.
As for the platform engine, I'm going to start from scratch. I haven't decided yet, but I may make a map editor for it as well... either that or just support mappy's format. Slopes aren't a problem at all. I learned a ton of new platformer techniques while working on the Monolith project so I'll implement them into this.
Now, back to work. :D
Re: Did ya miss me? :P New stuff. :)
As far as I can see from that thread, the runtime license is LGPL.
The basic premise of that license (the litmus test, so to speak) is that an user must be able to relink a binary with a newer (or own built) version of the library.
Usually that is taken as that the LGPLed parts must be in a separate .so (so the users can replace it with your own). In theory you can also provide everything as object code (static libs or .o's) too, so that the user can relink it.
So that would mean you need to follow that.
Most runtime libraries are therefore "GPL with static linking exception" (the exception being more lenient than the "library" GPL, it is GPL with static linking, and not LGPL with static linking..)
What other people do is irrelevant. It just takes one disgruntled person that wrote some IP somewhere in your codebase to make an awful big stink. He might not even be targeting you (but e.g. the FB devels)
Something catastrophic like that only happens once in a decade or so, but it can happen on any moment, usually the one that is the least convenient to you. But that people the years before got out of jail free won't help you, specially if the disgruntled person can really easy demonstrate that you made a mess of your IP management.
Nobody likes lawyers and licenses. But being an ostrich about it is no solution, because some minimal lipservice can mean the world when you really are in trouble.
The basic premise of that license (the litmus test, so to speak) is that an user must be able to relink a binary with a newer (or own built) version of the library.
Usually that is taken as that the LGPLed parts must be in a separate .so (so the users can replace it with your own). In theory you can also provide everything as object code (static libs or .o's) too, so that the user can relink it.
So that would mean you need to follow that.
Most runtime libraries are therefore "GPL with static linking exception" (the exception being more lenient than the "library" GPL, it is GPL with static linking, and not LGPL with static linking..)
What other people do is irrelevant. It just takes one disgruntled person that wrote some IP somewhere in your codebase to make an awful big stink. He might not even be targeting you (but e.g. the FB devels)
Something catastrophic like that only happens once in a decade or so, but it can happen on any moment, usually the one that is the least convenient to you. But that people the years before got out of jail free won't help you, specially if the disgruntled person can really easy demonstrate that you made a mess of your IP management.
Nobody likes lawyers and licenses. But being an ostrich about it is no solution, because some minimal lipservice can mean the world when you really are in trouble.
Re: Did ya miss me? :P New stuff. :)
lillo, the fbgfx lib author, said in the old Off-Topic board a couple times that he meant for the fbgfx to have the same license as the compiler. I'm sure there is no chance of him bringing lawers into any of this.marcov wrote:As far as I can see from that thread, the runtime license is LGPL.
The basic premise of that license (the litmus test, so to speak) is that an user must be able to relink a binary with a newer (or own built) version of the library.
Usually that is taken as that the LGPLed parts must be in a separate .so (so the users can replace it with your own). In theory you can also provide everything as object code (static libs or .o's) too, so that the user can relink it.
So that would mean you need to follow that.
Most runtime libraries are therefore "GPL with static linking exception" (the exception being more lenient than the "library" GPL, it is GPL with static linking, and not LGPL with static linking..)
What other people do is irrelevant. It just takes one disgruntled person that wrote some IP somewhere in your codebase to make an awful big stink. He might not even be targeting you (but e.g. the FB devels)
Something catastrophic like that only happens once in a decade or so, but it can happen on any moment, usually the one that is the least convenient to you. But that people the years before got out of jail free won't help you, specially if the disgruntled person can really easy demonstrate that you made a mess of your IP management.
Nobody likes lawyers and licenses. But being an ostrich about it is no solution, because some minimal lipservice can mean the world when you really are in trouble.
Re: Did ya miss me? :P New stuff. :)
This recurring uncertainty regarding the status of fbgfx is puzzling. Certainly Angelo can be contacted - 10 minutes with Google and I know where he lives, where he works, - even where he's due to present/speak in July.
So.. What is the [back]story?
My ignorant opinion is that this is a non-issue, given the anecdotal evidence, but the uncertainty still exists. Again. Where is v1ctor on this?
So.. What is the [back]story?
My ignorant opinion is that this is a non-issue, given the anecdotal evidence, but the uncertainty still exists. Again. Where is v1ctor on this?
Re: Did ya miss me? :P New stuff. :)
That's exactly the good term "anecdotal evidence"; people saying about other people (that are rumoredly the IP holders) that they don't care. Good for you that you know him in person, but other FB users might be on a different continent, and joined after they left.Zippy wrote:
My ignorant opinion is that this is a non-issue, given the anecdotal evidence, but the uncertainty still exists. Again. Where is v1ctor on this?
And it's not just the original contributors; what about (significant) donations and modification since? Usually they are assumed to have the same license as the rest of the package when donated. If there have been these are also in limbo.
If it is all so clear and dandy, and everybody agrees, but then also put that into the distribution license so that it clarifies and documents those rights. And better do it now before all those connections with the developers of old disappear. Since also current contributors (and thus major IP holders in the runtime parts) might get married, have a carrier change and have to put the FB work on the backburner. It happens all the time in OSS.
Re: Did ya miss me? :P New stuff. :)
Here's some of the information about the licensing that I know of.
Runtime library:
The runtime library has an extension to the LGPL license to allow static linking. This is stated within the readme.txt and elsewhere in the source.
Graphics library:
This is usually the one that people are more unclear on. Lillo, the primary author, has stated:
"I've read there's a debate on the gfxlib license, and about the missing LGPL extension that already is present in the compiler and rtlib...
In reality I've always wanted to add this extension to gfxlib as well, for better integration with the whole project at least; I just have no objections about it."
In another post on this topic, he has stated:
"So, as I have no time to update the license myself, here I grant you to update it to match the same license of the compiler and rtlib. Feel free to change those sources :-)"
These posts took place in the hidden development forum, I hope no-one objects to it being reposted here.
Others
More recent discussion behind the scenes has involved libintl, libbfd, and libffi which FB also sometimes would statically compile in depending on platform/the phase of the moon. I don't really know the details, but they are external, large projects, so anyone wishing to research those should find it easy enough to do.
Me, me, me!
I didn't do that much to the FB project, but Marcov talks in his post about "better do it now before all those connections with the developers of old disappear". So, in case I disappear, I will state now, that any contributions I made to the project, I grant the FreeBASIC team, in whatever form or fashion they take at any time, the right to re licence my contributions to ANY licence they see fit.
Runtime library:
The runtime library has an extension to the LGPL license to allow static linking. This is stated within the readme.txt and elsewhere in the source.
Graphics library:
This is usually the one that people are more unclear on. Lillo, the primary author, has stated:
"I've read there's a debate on the gfxlib license, and about the missing LGPL extension that already is present in the compiler and rtlib...
In reality I've always wanted to add this extension to gfxlib as well, for better integration with the whole project at least; I just have no objections about it."
In another post on this topic, he has stated:
"So, as I have no time to update the license myself, here I grant you to update it to match the same license of the compiler and rtlib. Feel free to change those sources :-)"
These posts took place in the hidden development forum, I hope no-one objects to it being reposted here.
Others
More recent discussion behind the scenes has involved libintl, libbfd, and libffi which FB also sometimes would statically compile in depending on platform/the phase of the moon. I don't really know the details, but they are external, large projects, so anyone wishing to research those should find it easy enough to do.
Me, me, me!
I didn't do that much to the FB project, but Marcov talks in his post about "better do it now before all those connections with the developers of old disappear". So, in case I disappear, I will state now, that any contributions I made to the project, I grant the FreeBASIC team, in whatever form or fashion they take at any time, the right to re licence my contributions to ANY licence they see fit.
Re: Did ya miss me? :P New stuff. :)
OK all's good then... I don't have anything to worry about. I will carry on as usual.
Here's just a quick screenie of the joint effort game we're working on:
http://www.eponasoft.com/clg.png
(if you get a 403 on this, it's because the server's not had its coffee yet... just enter the URL manually and it should happily play along)
The sprites and font are likely to change, as they are not original. The background tiles were drawn by the artist so they stay.
Here's just a quick screenie of the joint effort game we're working on:
http://www.eponasoft.com/clg.png
(if you get a 403 on this, it's because the server's not had its coffee yet... just enter the URL manually and it should happily play along)
The sprites and font are likely to change, as they are not original. The background tiles were drawn by the artist so they stay.
-
Lachie Dazdarian
- Posts: 2338
- Joined: May 31, 2005 9:59
- Location: Croatia
- Contact:
Re: Did ya miss me? :P New stuff. :)
Care to share some minimum details on the project? Genre, game size, theme?
Re: Did ya miss me? :P New stuff. :)
It's basically a board game that combines concepts from chess, Stratego, and Final Fantasy Tactics. It was devised by Matthew Weekes. Size? Dunno what you mean by that.
Re: Did ya miss me? :P New stuff. :)
Good to see ya, old boys. :p I hope the game works out, Dave. I don't really care about the legal $%#@, but it's cool to read about you again.
Yetifoot? What is that? It could only be a bigfoot's(feet?) foot... what? :p
Hey, Lachie. ;p
Seriously though... I started using FBGFX to handle OGL because I wanted to keep it in-house. That may seem a bit cheesy, but I really hoped to develop a semi-successful commercial game and then just lay it out in public as a game developed in a BASIC language. Gotta love the that underdog. ;)
Anyway, I have to stain this now...here... just #%$@ em. :D
Yetifoot? What is that? It could only be a bigfoot's(feet?) foot... what? :p
Hey, Lachie. ;p
Seriously though... I started using FBGFX to handle OGL because I wanted to keep it in-house. That may seem a bit cheesy, but I really hoped to develop a semi-successful commercial game and then just lay it out in public as a game developed in a BASIC language. Gotta love the that underdog. ;)
Anyway, I have to stain this now...here... just #%$@ em. :D