Has anyone looked into Jai?

For other topics related to the FreeBASIC project or its community.
Pritchard
Posts: 5492
Joined: Sep 12, 2005 20:06
Location: Ohio, USA

Has anyone looked into Jai?

Postby Pritchard » Jan 05, 2019 9:22

Jonathan Blow (renowned game developer and critic) is developing a programming language called Jai that seems to be doing some pretty neat stuff. There's a meta language, lots of features that would typically be only in multi-pass compilers, but I think Jon has managed to keep that kind of thing at a minimum so far.
D.J.Peters
Posts: 7835
Joined: May 28, 2005 3:28

Re: Has anyone looked into Jai?

Postby D.J.Peters » Jan 05, 2019 10:59

50 hours of Jail the game programming language
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... KJXD3PkyxO

The idea is old and other peoples done it 10-15 years before.

One exiting example are Temple OS
it's a 64 bit OS and what you would name a console
is the direct mode of holy a C like programming language.

for example if you type the C-function

Dir();

it will be execute directly

if you enter new arguments it compiles the "new" function on the fly and execute it.

Dir(*.txt);

The idea behind it are the good 30 years old C-64
if you powered it on you can type BASIC (without line numbers) and execute it directly.

Terry Davis wrote the OS the last decade and died August 2018.

He was schizophrenic and at the near of genial also :-)

I installed Temple OS two moth ago on a PC running in a sandbox via QEMU.

He asked god is 640 x 480 in 16 colors enough and good anthers "Yes of course" so it looks old school :-)

bla bla bla :-)

There are ton's of Temple OS videos on Youtube

Joshy
Imortis
Moderator
Posts: 1633
Joined: Jun 02, 2005 15:10
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: Has anyone looked into Jai?

Postby Imortis » Jan 07, 2019 15:34

Pritchard wrote:Jonathan Blow (renowned game developer and critic) is developing a programming language called Jai that seems to be doing some pretty neat stuff. There's a meta language, lots of features that would typically be only in multi-pass compilers, but I think Jon has managed to keep that kind of thing at a minimum so far.


I have been watching his videos on that for quite a while. It is an interesting idea for sure. I would like to see where it goes.
Pritchard
Posts: 5492
Joined: Sep 12, 2005 20:06
Location: Ohio, USA

Re: Has anyone looked into Jai?

Postby Pritchard » Jan 07, 2019 18:21

Imortis wrote:
Pritchard wrote:Jonathan Blow (renowned game developer and critic) is developing a programming language called Jai that seems to be doing some pretty neat stuff. There's a meta language, lots of features that would typically be only in multi-pass compilers, but I think Jon has managed to keep that kind of thing at a minimum so far.


I have been watching his videos on that for quite a while. It is an interesting idea for sure. I would like to see where it goes.

Of particular interest, I'm thinking of times where the FBC devs have said certain features would require multi-pass or updating the compilation process. JAI seems to accomplish a lot while breaking traditional assumptions about what a compiler would require to support those features.

I wish there was a public source repo but he doesn't seem interested in that at this time.
Imortis
Moderator
Posts: 1633
Joined: Jun 02, 2005 15:10
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: Has anyone looked into Jai?

Postby Imortis » Jan 07, 2019 18:26

Pritchard wrote:Of particular interest, I'm thinking of times where the FBC devs have said certain features would require multi-pass or updating the compilation process. JAI seems to accomplish a lot while breaking traditional assumptions about what a compiler would require to support those features.

I wish there was a public source repo but he doesn't seem interested in that at this time.


Agreed. I thought something very similar. Isn't it already self-hosting at this point?
IchMagBier
Posts: 43
Joined: Jan 13, 2018 8:47

Re: Has anyone looked into Jai?

Postby IchMagBier » Jan 08, 2019 15:22

This looks promising, but ...
return x + y + z;
... why do we need semicolons in 2019? I never got why a programming language would need a semicolon as its line delimiter. Either use 0x0A or simply don't use a line delimiter at all. It's not harder to parse this

Code: Select all

x=1+2 y=3+4

than this

Code: Select all

x=1+2; y=3+4;


Semicolons are the main reason why I switched from C to FreeBasic as my hobby language.
marcov
Posts: 2790
Joined: Jun 16, 2005 9:45
Location: Eindhoven, NL
Contact:

Re: Has anyone looked into Jai?

Postby marcov » Jan 08, 2019 15:49

IchMagBier: correct code is often easy to parse. The real test is Incorrect code like

x=1+2+ y=3+4

or
x=1+2+
y=3+4

is harder. And what about breaking a call with expressions in the arguments over multiple lines?
IchMagBier
Posts: 43
Joined: Jan 13, 2018 8:47

Re: Has anyone looked into Jai?

Postby IchMagBier » Jan 08, 2019 16:20

marcov wrote:what about breaking a call with expressions in the arguments over multiple lines?

A compiler usually tokenizes the code instead of directly parsing it.
Let's tokenize by hand:

Code: Select all

testfunc(1,2,3)

Would create those tokens:
  • SYMBOL "testfunc"
  • OPEN PARANTHESIS
  • CONSTANT "1"
  • COMMA
  • CONSTANT "2"
  • COMMA
  • CONSTANT "3"
  • CLOSE PARANTHESIS
Now let's imagine this:

Code: Select all

testfunc(1
,2,
3)

The tokenizer would simply ignore the newline character (0x0A) and produce the same tokens as above.
marcov
Posts: 2790
Joined: Jun 16, 2005 9:45
Location: Eindhoven, NL
Contact:

Re: Has anyone looked into Jai?

Postby marcov » Jan 08, 2019 19:12

IchMagBier wrote:
marcov wrote:what about breaking a call with expressions in the arguments over multiple lines?

A compiler usually tokenizes the code instead of directly parsing it.


True. But the semicolon is a token so that linefeed (0x0a) can be ignored. IOW if you ditch the semicolon you need something to replace it.

The tokenizer would simply ignore the newline character (0x0A) and produce the same tokens as above.


Your example is not multi line, is compilable, and does not have subexpression. As such it is trivial and not interesting for parsing purposes at all. Also parenthesis are not interesting till they nest.
Pritchard
Posts: 5492
Joined: Sep 12, 2005 20:06
Location: Ohio, USA

Re: Has anyone looked into Jai?

Postby Pritchard » Jan 09, 2019 15:22

IchMagBier wrote:This looks promising, but ...
return x + y + z;
... why do we need semicolons in 2019? I never got why a programming language would need a semicolon as its line delimiter. Either use 0x0A or simply don't use a line delimiter at all. It's not harder to parse this

Code: Select all

x=1+2 y=3+4

than this

Code: Select all

x=1+2; y=3+4;


Semicolons are the main reason why I switched from C to FreeBasic as my hobby language.

To be clear, semicolons are command delimiters. Statements might span multiple lines.

Jonathan Blow has mentioned favoring semantics over syntax for the time being. Syntax can be changed, and this isn't necessarily that hard to do.

Everyone's finnicky about their preferred syntax but this is not the hardest or most important part of a programming language.

If semi-colons are your main reason for switching languages, I honestly just don't know what to say. That's really a silly thing IMO and if it's so important to people, you can take the JavaScript route where semi-colons are mostly optional.

For a compiler actively in development, having semi-colons probably makes working on the important things easier, rather than having to spend time going back working on tedious but ultimately trivial issues to resolve parsing and error message ambiguities just because you didn't want a statement delimiter.

But like, in what way do semi-colons bug you, really, other than your own hyper-personal annoyance?
dodicat
Posts: 5978
Joined: Jan 10, 2006 20:30
Location: Scotland

Re: Has anyone looked into Jai?

Postby dodicat » Jan 09, 2019 15:58

For curiosity Pritchard.
Another Jon(athon) got Blown out of the forum a few years ago for promoting another language (Gambas I believe)
Then he came back as scriptbasic and got blown out of the forum again for promoting Cbasic.
You yourself were one of the main assassins for unfortunate scriptbasic, assisted by marcov and angros.
Now here you are enthusiastically promoting javascript(a few weeks back) and now Jai?
I am not bothered in the least of course, but I am confused.
Pritchard
Posts: 5492
Joined: Sep 12, 2005 20:06
Location: Ohio, USA

Re: Has anyone looked into Jai?

Postby Pritchard » Jan 09, 2019 17:19

dodicat wrote:I am not bothered in the least of course, but I am confused.

I can tell. I'm not trying to promote anything. I thought it was interesting is because of implications to compiler architecture that could carry over to FBC.

JAI is accomplishing a lot while keeping things like multi-pass minimal or non-existent. That's a big deal.

I think we should continue to be aware of what's going on in the rest of the programming world.
caseih
Posts: 1386
Joined: Feb 26, 2007 5:32

Re: Has anyone looked into Jai?

Postby caseih » Jan 10, 2019 1:50

Near as I can tell Jai accomplishes very little in actual fact. It doesn't seem to really exist outside of Mr Blow's own personal computer. There's no public release of any kind as near as I can tell. If there is it isn't showing up as the first link on a google search. Unlike Go, Rust, etc. So whatever advantages it has are completely theoretical as far as I'm concerned. I think I found the beginnings of a third-party implementation of jai on github. Basically if Blow isn't willing to release his language, and especially if he's unwilling to release the source code for his reference compiler (and the source of the runtime library), then it's a nonstarter. period. Especially compared to the other choices out there right now.

That said, new languages are always interesting and worth some study. If you can find a jai compiler somewhere, try to build something in it. See how it goes. Could be fun. I myself recently wrote my first actual Android app (apk and everything). It consisted of less than 100 lines of mostly javascript. I can't see much to love about Javascript, but it did work fairly well and I was able to build my tiny app very quickly. Figuring out the GUI layout took far longer than the coding did.
D.J.Peters
Posts: 7835
Joined: May 28, 2005 3:28

Re: Has anyone looked into Jai?

Postby D.J.Peters » Jan 10, 2019 2:02

If source code creates source code the compile process it self can be a running program.
Nice idea for some tasks like creating jump tables and so one
but that does not realy match the workflow in my stupid brain. :-)

Joshy
caseih
Posts: 1386
Joined: Feb 26, 2007 5:32

Re: Has anyone looked into Jai?

Postby caseih » Jan 10, 2019 5:21

Yeah lookup tables are used a lot in game programming. Not just for jump tables. But for a lot of other things like colors, openGL triangle buffers, etc. If those are large tables they are often generated by other programs and placed in source code used in compilation. This is actually a fairly common idiom. Of course one could dynamically allocate memory and fill it with the table values at run time, but maybe that is too costly. I dunno. An interesting concept to be sure. I am not sure there are enough use cases to justify its existence in a general-purpose language like FB, though.

Return to “Community Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest