titles for posters?

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BasicCoder2
Posts: 3349
Joined: Jan 01, 2009 7:03

titles for posters?

Postby BasicCoder2 » Aug 17, 2018 18:14

viewtopic.php?f=7&p=250754#p250754
dafhi wrote: Tips and Tricks I consider above beginner.

Perhaps there are no beginners here. Anyway they would all be scared away by all the unreadable coding by the resident experts :)
The problem for me is that if I don't post I don't get any feedback from the resident experts.
In one of my posts for example you (dafhi) provided a fast replacement for reading a pixel value from a bitmap. Now that was a useful tip for a beginner or a self taught hobby programmer without a degree in computer science.
There used to be titles given to posters according to how many posts they made which of course was silly but perhaps what would not be so silly is if titles were given according to the poster's programming expertise?
Amateur, Beginner, Intermediate, Expert.
That way I could still post without addling the brains of beginners.
badidea
Posts: 1300
Joined: May 24, 2007 22:10
Location: The Netherlands

Re: titles for posters?

Postby badidea » Aug 17, 2018 18:35

And who would determine whether you are an Amateur, Beginner, Intermediate or Expert? Also, one might be an expert on one topic, but an amateur on another. E.g.: assembly / bit manipulation, string processing, object orientated programming, Windows API, certain libraries, etc.
BasicCoder2
Posts: 3349
Joined: Jan 01, 2009 7:03

Re: titles for posters?

Postby BasicCoder2 » Aug 17, 2018 19:31

badidea wrote:And who would determine whether you are an Amateur, Beginner, Intermediate or Expert?

That would be a self assignment based on an assumption of an honest self assessment.
Also, one might be an expert on one topic, but an amateur on another. E.g.: assembly / bit manipulation, string processing, object orientated programming, Windows API, certain libraries, etc.

I guess that would mean assigning the code itself as being at an amateur, beginner, intermediate or expert level.
It was only a thought bubble which will probably go pop like all the others.
MrSwiss
Posts: 3036
Joined: Jun 02, 2013 9:27
Location: Switzerland

Re: titles for posters?

Postby MrSwiss » Aug 17, 2018 20:21

BasicCoder2 wrote:Anyway they would all be scared away by all the unreadable coding by the resident experts :)
Please, don't use "unreadable" to mean "incomprehensible", the two words
have a distinctly different meaning ... (unreadable = spaghetti code, or
badly formatted code).

I further think, that badidea's arguments are valid.
BasicCoder2
Posts: 3349
Joined: Jan 01, 2009 7:03

Re: titles for posters?

Postby BasicCoder2 » Aug 17, 2018 20:37

MrSwiss wrote:
BasicCoder2 wrote:Anyway they would all be scared away by all the unreadable coding by the resident experts :)
Please, don't use "unreadable" to mean "incomprehensible", the two words
have a distinctly different meaning ... (unreadable = spaghetti code, or
badly formatted code).

The context was, "unreadable to beginners". Spaghetti code or badly formatted code is not unreadable just difficult to read. Unreadable means you literally can't read it because you don't know what the symbols actually mean.
I further think, that badidea's arguments are valid.

Ok. It was just a thought.
MrSwiss
Posts: 3036
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Location: Switzerland

Re: titles for posters?

Postby MrSwiss » Aug 17, 2018 20:44

BasicCoder2 wrote:The context was, "unreadable to beginners".
The context is, "incomprehensible to beginners", even if perfectly "readable".

Example:
Text written in italian, prefectly "readable" but still not "comprehending", what it means ...
badidea
Posts: 1300
Joined: May 24, 2007 22:10
Location: The Netherlands

Re: titles for posters?

Postby badidea » Aug 17, 2018 20:58

BasicCoder2 wrote:
badidea wrote:And who would determine whether you are an Amateur, Beginner, Intermediate or Expert?

That would be a self assignment based on an assumption of an honest self assessment.

I see several problems with that. Remember TESLACOIL? He posted 1769 times, nearly all at a sub-amateur level. He considered himself a genius however (see link). He got the special status 'Noob' back then. Assessment by others or a system like 'stack overflow' uses, is also bad. I can think of only one solution: We let MrSwiss do al the assessments / assignments :-)
PaulSquires
Posts: 746
Joined: Jul 14, 2005 23:41
Contact:

Re: titles for posters?

Postby PaulSquires » Aug 17, 2018 21:24

badidea wrote:...I can think of only one solution: We let MrSwiss do all the assessments / assignments :-)


Where do I send my bribe money to Mr. Swiss? :-)
paul doe
Posts: 912
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Location: Argentina

Re: titles for posters?

Postby paul doe » Aug 17, 2018 22:06

BasicCoder2 wrote:That way I could still post without addling the brains of beginners.

I think you're taking it way too personally. You're not addling the brains of anyone. That, as it just so happens, is an integral part of learning to code: read, code, make tons of mistakes, learn, and repeat.
But, I have to admit, this is getting very tiresome. Excuse me for a second, I'll be back in a minute...

MrSwiss wrote:Coding style, happens to be a part, of learning/using (any) language. You are teaching
noobs/beginners, what can only be be called: bad habits! Those are later on, when trying
to advance oneself, a massive hindrance! Since, one has to rid oneself of them first!

Why do I say so?
I've started, by using your stuff and, this cost me dearly (far more time, than learning it
correctly, the first time around), later in the process of learning, more advanced
language constructs and/or techniques!


Bottom line is: please refrain fom posting such "oldfashioned" code, in future. Thanks.

Btw: how can this be "not personal"? (Btw: Not the first time, I'm writing this, actually!)

Now, I have a simple question to ask: who made you the 'policy police'? I can understand your point, but it's not for you to enforce. Let beginners be beginners, and help and teach them if they want to. Don't try to shove 'good practices' down their throats; tell them what they are, and let them be beginners. I don't think that you're in a position to tell BasicCoder2 to 'refrain to post old fashioned code', because your code is as old fashioned as I can conceive (at least, the code that I've seen).

You're such a puzzling fella, indeed. In another thread, you clearly state that you hold a degree in Computer Science. Then, above, you state that 'you started by using BasicCoder2 stuff' and that it 'costed you dearly' in your learning process. Now, I'm curious: if you're a Computer Scientist, can't you determine when some code is 'beginners code' (as BasicCoder2 wants to put it)? You remind me of some members here that claim 'extensive experience', and then they get mesmerized by a simple concept such as an array of pointers.

Understand that I'm not attacking you, just trying to comprehend the reason behind the harrassment that you've been putting BasicCoder2 through. I'm fed up with it, several other members are also fed up with it (and, admirably, have taken it with an amazing sense of humor), and I can read that BasicCoder2 is also quite fed up with it. It does get old and tiresome, mate.

@BasicCoder2: Back again. Just keep them coming, learning, and being yourself. You don't need to be apologetic all the time; really, that just makes you look like a whiner. I personally find your code really enjoyable: easy to read, easy to follow, and direct to the point (sometimes quite amusing, too =D). All I can suggest is that you simply let them through, if you get my drift.

I can be harsh sometimes, but I'm not without a soul, and I don't like unfairness. And I think that this kind of trolling is getting excessive and unfair.
MrSwiss
Posts: 3036
Joined: Jun 02, 2013 9:27
Location: Switzerland

Re: titles for posters?

Postby MrSwiss » Aug 17, 2018 22:55

paul doe wrote:Now, I'm curious: if you're a Computer Scientist, can't you determine when some code is 'beginners code' (as BasicCoder2 wants to put it)?
There seem to be, some very wrong assumptions, from your end.
Computer Science != Programmer (okay, some are Dev's, others are Admin's)
I've for a long time done IT-Infrastructure (Server/Network/Firewall e.t.c).
Only at a far later stage, I got into professional programming.
(I've done so earlier, but only for fun/hobby and, before getting the degree!)

Then, even if posting an excerpt, you still didn't understand the essence: flexible
coding vs. static coding
, absolutely nothing to do, with OO (which you seem to favour).
paul doe
Posts: 912
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Location: Argentina

Re: titles for posters?

Postby paul doe » Aug 17, 2018 23:47

MrSwiss wrote:There seem to be, some very wrong assumptions, from your end.
Computer Science = Programmer (okay, some are, others are NOT)
I've for a very long time done IT-Infrastructure (Server/Network/Firewall e.t.c).
Only at a far later stage, I got into professional programming.
(I've done so earlier, but only for fun/hobby and, before getting the degree!)

I didn't assume anything, that's why I asked. Thanks for clarifying.
MrSwiss wrote:Then, even if posting an excerpt, you still didn't understand the essence: flexible
coding vs. static coding
, absolutely nothing to do, with OO (which you seem to favour).

Object-Oriented Programming is all about flexible and reusable coding; that's why it was invented in the first place =D

However, you need to understand that writing flexible code (either in OOP or in the traditional Procedural Way) takes a lot of practice, that beginners simply don't have (I'm assuming a beginner programmer, not a beginner in FreeBasic, which can draw knowledge from previous exposure to other languages). Personally, when I post code snippets here, I don't concern myself with 'good practices', but to convey the idea effectively. We all have different practices, coding conventions, and prioritize different things; I favor flexibility and clarity over efficiency no matter the cost. This may sound outrageous to some people, but that's just my preference.

What I'm actually critizicing you is the relentless pursuit that you've been putting BasicCoder2 through lately, not what you strive for, with which I absolutely agree. But seriously, this kind of attitude doesn't do anybody any good, especially when you demonstrate that you can do way better. Just take it easy, that's all I'm saying...
BasicCoder2
Posts: 3349
Joined: Jan 01, 2009 7:03

Re: titles for posters?

Postby BasicCoder2 » Aug 18, 2018 1:27

I think you're taking it way too personally.
... You don't need to be apologetic all the time; really, that just makes you look like a whiner.

Really? An apologetic whiner? Oh dear. I will try not to take that personally :)
Honestly I don't take it personally even if the responses were read that way. MrSwiss doesn't bother me at all and I don't mind his critique of my coding, he is probably correct, my robust responses were meant as an explanation, not an apology, so he might understand where I was coming from. Thanks for giving it to me straight, I do appreciate being told how I am coming across.
deltarho[1859]
Posts: 1741
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Location: UK

Re: titles for posters?

Postby deltarho[1859] » Aug 18, 2018 1:32

@paul doe

I wrote a long post supporting you which bordered on psychological profiling MrSwiss and BasicCoder2. However, I am not a psychologist so ripped it up.

This thread is a classic BasicCoder2 utterly pointless thread. I have criticised BasicCoder2 in the past for starting such threads.

BasicCoder2 wrote:Anyway they would all be scared away by all the unreadable coding by the resident experts :)

My Engish vocabulary is not that large but I do have a dictionary. I read code on this forum where a keyword is used that I am not well acquainted with but I do have a Help file. It is not the first time when I have the forum opened on one monitor and the Help file opened on another. I don't need a BSc in Computer Science or Mathematics to read the Help file; the only required attribute is the ability to f*****g read and, of course, the desire to learn. Excuse my 'French' but, BasicCoder2, you do talk utter nonsense at times.

I do not believe that MrSwiss is relentlessly pursuing BasicCoder2 on coding grounds only; it goes deeper than that. As mentioned I am not a psychologist so will say no more on that.

paul doe wrote:You don't need to be apologetic all the time; really, that just makes you look like a whiner.

Doesn't it just.

Also, having an academic background is NOT a prerequisite for writing half decent code. Further, I know some exceptional coders who are dullards in all other respects. One of my MSc tutors was a PhD. Getting him 'onto' anything not related to maths and he was a knucklehead.
paul doe
Posts: 912
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Location: Argentina

Re: titles for posters?

Postby paul doe » Aug 18, 2018 2:26

BasicCoder2 wrote:Really? An apologetic whiner? Oh dear. I will try not to take that personally :)

By all means, don't. I said that it makes you look like one, not that you were one =D
BasicCoder2 wrote:Honestly I don't take it personally even if the responses were read that way. MrSwiss doesn't bother me at all and I don't mind his critique of my coding, he is probably correct, my robust responses were meant as an explanation, not an apology, so he might understand where I was coming from. Thanks for giving it to me straight, I do appreciate being told how I am coming across.

The point is, there's nothing to explain, really. My wife taught me not to give explanations anymore, because NOBODY gives a flying f*ck. Turns out, she's been right all along =D
I understand how you feel, but yours it's more of an attitude problem than an aptitude one. I'm talking about programming, naturally =D
paul doe
Posts: 912
Joined: Jul 25, 2017 17:22
Location: Argentina

Re: titles for posters?

Postby paul doe » Aug 18, 2018 3:22

deltarho[1859] wrote:@paul doe

I wrote a long post supporting you which bordered on psychological profiling MrSwiss and BasicCoder2. However, I am not a psychologist so ripped it up.

Hahaha me neither. I wasn't familiar with the Jung Personality Test, so when you suggested it in another thread, I took it; it just so happens that I'm also an INTP, so it's no wonder we frequently share the same perspectives on certain topics =D
deltarho[1859] wrote:This thread is a classic BasicCoder2 utterly pointless thread. I have criticised BasicCoder2 in the past for starting such threads.

The problem is not so much that the threads are pointless; their scope is simply too broad, so they quickly degenerate into pointless discussions like the current one =D
deltarho[1859] wrote:
BasicCoder2 wrote:Anyway they would all be scared away by all the unreadable coding by the resident experts :)

My Engish vocabulary is not that large but I do have a dictionary. I read code on this forum where a keyword is used that I am not well acquainted with but I do have a Help file. It is not the first time when I have the forum opened on one monitor and the Help file opened on another. I don't need a BSc in Computer Science or Mathematics to read the Help file; the only required attribute is the ability to f*****g read and, of course, the desire to learn. Excuse my 'French' but, BasicCoder2, you do talk utter nonsense at times.

And that is the thing: BasicCoder2 already stated that he isn't interested in becoming the absolute best coder he can be; he merely wants to have fun, and use his programming skills to solve problems that interests him. And for me, that's perfectly acceptable. Also, bear in mind that, while the only ability required is to read indeed, actually understanding what you're reading is a very different thing, and can only be effectively done if you have the required background (not necessarily academic, as you point out). So, I think you're also able to see the problem here =D
deltarho[1859] wrote:I do not believe that MrSwiss is relentlessly pursuing BasicCoder2 on coding grounds only; it goes deeper than that. As mentioned I am not a psychologist so will say no more on that.
Yeah, I noticed that too. However, I don't like to jump into conclusions, so I won't =D
deltarho[1859] wrote:
paul doe wrote:You don't need to be apologetic all the time; really, that just makes you look like a whiner.

Doesn't it just.

Also, having an academic background is NOT a prerequisite for writing half decent code. Further, I know some exceptional coders who are dullards in all other respects. One of my MSc tutors was a PhD. Getting him 'onto' anything not related to maths and he was a knucklehead.

This is what I tried to explain to BasicCoder2 before: you don't need to be a hotshot to write good code. And, incidentally, it's also what MrSwiss is trying to tell him. Then again, what constitutes good code for one can be utter crap (or unreadable, why not) to another. We, as programmers, are naturally very opinionated and, let's admit it, do take pride on the code we write. So, it's hard to take it when somebody comes and categorically states 'your code sucks'; it has the exact opposite effect, actually, even when we are really trying to help the other person to get better. It took me a long time (and a book or two) to figure out why this is so =D

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