FreeBASIC Discussion December 2017

For other topics related to the FreeBASIC project or its community.
Imortis
Moderator
Posts: 1612
Joined: Jun 02, 2005 15:10
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: FreeBASIC Discussion December 2017

Postby Imortis » Dec 20, 2017 15:59

My biggest complaint is all the QB baggage. Print Using has never worked "right" because it has never completely mimicked QB's Print Using. It actually works really well, but we have bugs filed for it because it is not the same as QBs. I like that we used QB as a base, and it has made converting older code much simpler, but it is chaining the compiler to a boulder that we could do without.
Mihail_B
Posts: 271
Joined: Jan 29, 2008 11:20
Location: Romania
Contact:

Re: FreeBASIC Discussion December 2017

Postby Mihail_B » Dec 20, 2017 18:20

Part 2 - Weakness

I don't have many complains ... :)

FBC
1. Incomplete OOP support (templates are really useful in all sorts of situations)

That's all ...
caseih
Posts: 1335
Joined: Feb 26, 2007 5:32

Re: FreeBASIC Discussion December 2017

Postby caseih » Dec 20, 2017 19:56

Introducing new features in the form of runtime library additions, such as a GUI library, need not involve adding keywords to the already bloated keyword space. In fact I'm a strong proponent of removing most keywords from FB proper and instead call them as normal functions in the runtime library, much like all other languages do. The core of FB could be defined using 35-40 actual keywords, with things like screen, screenres, line, pset, draw, etc, all just normal functions that a program can optionally refer to, either using an include file.

Even if keywords are not removed from FB, there's nothing that prevents future additions to the run time library from being placed in bundled .bi files (and official libraries) with the compiler.

If you look around at other popular languages that have large runtime libraries, including Java and Python, these batteries-included run times are all imported on demand and are not part of the language's keyword space. And they include things like GUI toolkits.
nimdays
Posts: 215
Joined: May 29, 2014 22:01
Location: ID

Re: FreeBASIC Discussion December 2017

Postby nimdays » Dec 23, 2017 5:20

Part2

Strip doesn't help to reduce the size of executable.
Munair
Posts: 834
Joined: Oct 19, 2017 15:00
Location: 't Zand, NL
Contact:

Re: FreeBASIC Discussion December 2017

Postby Munair » Dec 23, 2017 7:51

The only real weakness (and danger) I can think of right now, is the lack of ambition to keep FB going. There is quite a list of bugs dating back to 2012, which doesn't look encouraging. Not all of them are really bugs, but some are. However, currently none of the compiler developers (if any) seem interested in doing anything about it. Lack of development and maintenance over a longer period of time will inevitably lead to the end of a project. Just saying.
fxm
Posts: 8913
Joined: Apr 22, 2009 12:46
Location: Paris suburbs, FRANCE

Re: FreeBASIC Discussion December 2017

Postby fxm » Dec 23, 2017 10:18

I know well the bugs listed (180 still open), although only about forty of them are mine.
I do not think they are very annoying, because I see few users (who usually do not know them) complaining of encountering their consequences in their codes (falling on it by bad luck).
I strongly believe that in order to attract or retain users, the adding of some main new features (already listed for the most part) takes the precedence over the fixing of most of the listed bugs.
Achaean
Posts: 51
Joined: Aug 02, 2017 12:54

Re: FreeBASIC Discussion December 2017

Postby Achaean » Dec 24, 2017 0:55

FB weak points (at my opinion):

1) Lack of RAD, or at least an IDE.
Trying to replace the IDE with complicated in-code commands, is prone to failure (specially for non-Windows systems).

2) Lack of Documentation and Tutorials.
Documentation is full of dead links (both pages and mails). Tutorial are rare and just for some very specific subjects.

3) Lack of administration and maintenance.
a) Forum has many problems and malfunctions.
b) Bugs are remaining open for ever.

4) Broken compatibility with QB and previous versions.
a) QB programs are getting harder and harder to run, as the time goes by (even with -qb dialect).
b) Open source programs (eg. from FB games repository), even the simpler ones, are nearly impossible to compile nowadays.
c) Mimicking of other languages. Sometimes, FB seems like a poor relative of C, C++, or Java.

FB strong point:
Despite the stagnation of last years, FB (alongside with QB64) are hands-down the best BASIC compilers, for today's systems and an invaluable educating tool!!!
dixiony
Posts: 25
Joined: Jun 22, 2017 15:21
Location: Volgograd, Russia

Re: FreeBASIC Discussion December 2017

Postby dixiony » Dec 24, 2017 9:33

The language itself is good enough, and I would not make much change in the compiler itself, but what surrounds it ...

1. There is no full development environment with the RAD system (for example, for window applications with automatic insertion of code into Windows API).
2. Most of the header files are obsolete (three years have passed).
3. More than half the sample code that comes with the compiler does not work.
4. There are no good textbooks and lessons (both text and video). I think that the community is not interested in this.
5. All code examples, starting from the source code supplied with the compiler, and ending with the code examples in this forum, are poorly commented on and how this code works, you just have to guess.
6. Very poor compatibility with QB dialect. For those who want to gradually move from QB to FB, it will be very difficult to do this.

For me personally, these items are the most important.
coderJeff
Site Admin
Posts: 2845
Joined: Nov 04, 2005 14:23
Location: Ontario, Canada
Contact:

Re: FreeBASIC Discussion December 2017

Postby coderJeff » Dec 29, 2017 13:37

Thank you to everyone for participating. This is the end of Part 2. I think close enough to the time limit. As I write this it is early morning on both Dec 29 and Dec 30 somewhere. We have members from across the globe and I find that remarkable.

I think we acheived success in parts 1 & 2. There have been posts from both newer and older members, so I think it's a well rounded list of strengths and weaknesses, though somewhat short of the goal of 30 posts each.

I have participated in this type of structured discussion many times both at work and in volunteer groups. Typically it is several hour or day long discussion. This is the first time I tried it on a forum.


START OF PART 3 - ACTION

In the last part, the intent is to take action. Normally this is where the tasks get delegated, but since this is a community effort and is completely voluntary, needs a different approach.

Here's what I recommend:
1) read this topic from start to finish, **especially** if you haven't already done so.
2) if you want action on something, start a new topic in an appropriate forum
3) then add a post here with a link to the new topic; optionally quote the idea or inspiration from this thread in your post
4) even if you feel like you can't do the work yourself, maybe you are the person to organize; maybe there is a way you can help facilitate the change or improvement and gain support for the action

What we should be left with here, is a fairly consise thread that captures the thoughts and opinions of the members at this time, with links that lead to further discussions and actions. (I will post my topic separate from this one)

Thanks, everyone.
Munair
Posts: 834
Joined: Oct 19, 2017 15:00
Location: 't Zand, NL
Contact:

Re: FreeBASIC Discussion December 2017

Postby Munair » Dec 31, 2017 13:16

Seems like I am the first to get back here and link to a thread that holds an idea.

Although the idea was in my mind for some time, early November I started a thread about the development of a RAD environment written in and for FreeBASIC. I was not just talking about an IDE with editor and some advanced options, because there are already some of them out there, unfortunately only for Windows. So initially my main focus will be for Linux, also because I'm a huge Linux fan, primarily because of the open-source and freedom that comes with it. FreeBASIC can and should have its place there.

So what it comes down to, is that I believe a RAD environment will greatly help the FreeBASIC project and it will be easier and more fun to develop GUI applications that way. It may also boost interest with the compiler developers to return to maintaining the current bug list and possibly add new features. New libraries may be added in the process as essential parts, like full Unicode support (which I'm currently working on).

Looking at the FreePascal project, I wonder if that compiler would be as actively maintained and developed without the Lazarus RAD environment. So there's definitely an advantage in having a project like that. I'm surpirsed to see it hasn't happened yet in the last 13 years with FreeBASIC.
coderJeff
Site Admin
Posts: 2845
Joined: Nov 04, 2005 14:23
Location: Ontario, Canada
Contact:

Re: FreeBASIC Discussion December 2017

Postby coderJeff » Jan 01, 2018 15:52

jj2007 wrote:- documentation all over the place; I needed Google and the help of forum members to find the manual (and there are clever members who complain that users don't read the FM)


Achaean wrote:2) Lack of Documentation and Tutorials.
Documentation is full of dead links (both pages and mails). Tutorial are rare and just for some very specific subjects.


Follow up at Wiki Improvements starting with removing (really) dead pages.
Imortis
Moderator
Posts: 1612
Joined: Jun 02, 2005 15:10
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: FreeBASIC Discussion December 2017

Postby Imortis » Jan 02, 2018 17:49

I forgot to do this part:
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=26246

Here is my topic about a few things: raising the idea of a sound library similar to FBGfx, and the idea of using Namespaces to encapsulate the GFX, Sound, and RTLib for FB so as to free up the global name space.
Lost Zergling
Posts: 180
Joined: Dec 02, 2011 22:51
Location: France

Re: FreeBASIC Discussion December 2017

Postby Lost Zergling » Mar 26, 2018 16:21

As I had committed to: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=26533

Return to “Community Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest