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TESLACOIL
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valid point

Postby TESLACOIL » Jun 22, 2010 14:32

valid point


but every community is shaped like a pyramid

put up too many barriers to entering the bottom layer & it starves the community of oxygen in the long run.

as with every pyramid the leaders at the top tend to forget about these barriers as they are far below them.

instinctively i can tell this is not a newbie friendly forum, more a gathering place for old hands

agreed...newbies are a pain in the butt, but they are the long term future

I can see the value in Free Basic. power & simplicity. The programming world is changing though. Mash-ups & mashup friendly software will play an increasingly larger role over time.

Im all ready thinking about a Mashup Programming Infrastructure using
free basic.

when off the shelf code is to square.....free basic could? be there.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

ever faster machines encourages/enables larger more sophisticated software to be contemplated.

Ive recently realized that id be happier downloading standalone exe's to do x,y,z ...at the beck and call of my main code module. Rather than code everything myself or have a huge program cluttered with libraries & extensions.


Those that can (code) will do

Those that cant will mash-up

its all about productivity in the end.

my 2 cents
marcov
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Re: valid point

Postby marcov » Jun 22, 2010 16:39

TESLACOIL wrote:valid point


but every community is shaped like a pyramid

put up too many barriers to entering the bottom layer & it starves the community of oxygen in the long run.


True, and good analogy but nobody says that the only way to get more people to the top must necessarily start with the lower layer.

I think trying to improve the mobility from say middle to the top of the pyramid yields way better results with smaller efforts
rolliebollocks
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Postby rolliebollocks » Jun 22, 2010 18:43

I don't like this line of thinking at all. I think we should be trying to attract new users despite whatever forum gaffs, which in my opinion is stupid and petty to complain about anyway. We always have the option of ignoring people who irritate us. So if you're going to get all bent out of shape because of some perceived failure to act appropriately on the forum then you are in a sense making yourself into the courtesy police, like Miss Manners or something, and ironically enough, you'd be considered rude to get upset about such things.

Not every newb is going to turn into lifetime user, or even be worth the time it takes to answer their questions. But you hedge your bets by being considerate to everyone, so as not to appear like a bunch of elitist pricks.

This sounds right to me.
agamemnus
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Postby agamemnus » Jun 23, 2010 6:08

TESLACOIL, marcov, segin, all:

I would draw the line at the point where someone requires video tutorials to explain something very basic such as a compiler switch. Perhaps you (teslacoil) are right that there should be a prominent quickstart guide, however.

I am set to receive the freebasic.sourceforge.net domain in about a week (I submitted an "abandoned project takeover" request almost three months ago. I'll be linking to freebasic.net, games.freebasic.net, the main IDE sites, and the main wiki.

If anyone has suggestions for tutorials for absolute beginners in either freebasic or programming, I would add the links to those too.

Any other link suggestions are also welcome...
marcov
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Postby marcov » Jun 24, 2010 7:36

rolliebollocks wrote:I don't like this line of thinking at all. I think we should be trying to attract new users despite whatever forum gaffs, which in my opinion is stupid and petty to complain about anyway


IMHO it is as stupid and petty to not take current users into account in future planning. Since they already have made some form of commitment, are actively contributing (well, euh, except me)

Any course should be a healthy mix of both. And that means a bit of consistent Realpolitik wrt new users, and not chasing every whim in the futile juvinel hope that "that will bring in the hordes".

We always have the option of ignoring people who irritate us.


You are trying to read more in my words then was actually meant.

I was more going in the direction that new users don't automatically make new developers.

Investments in all levels of the pyramid are needed to increase the percentage of users that make it to developer.

It was just a caution to not direct the whole project to attracting new users. Since doing that (and keeping them) is much harder then most people think.

Not every newb is going to turn into lifetime user, or even be worth the time it takes to answer their questions.


Questions are never the problem, though I think a "RTM" or a WAAAYP from time to time is healthy.

But you hedge your bets by being considerate to everyone, so as not to appear like a bunch of elitist pricks.


As a devel you will Πss of people anyway. It comes with the territory (and worse, if you take your responsibilities seriously, you have no choice)

IOW being an elitist is no problem, as long as you are open to, and attract other elitist pricks.
rolliebollocks
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Postby rolliebollocks » Jun 24, 2010 13:26

IMHO it is as stupid and petty to not take current users into account in future planning. Since they already have made some form of commitment, are actively contributing (well, euh, except me)


I can understand this point. But the fact of the matter is FB is powerful enough to attract experienced users and easy enough to attract beginning programmers, so you will always get this mix, for what FB is.

My other point would be, I don't think knowledge of programming is a good indicator of whether someone will be a good part of the community.
The investment we make in our newbies will determine the future of the project.

Also, learning to program in freebasic does not require a learning curve when you jump to another language like C or Java. I took C in college with a lot of knowledge in how to program in QB, and a little knowledge of C++ from modding WWIV (yeah I'm old, I had a BBS), in fact, some days I still wish I had a BBS.

You are trying to read more in my words then was actually meant.


Well, I didn't *try* to do that. I suppose I just did it.

Code: Select all

I was more going in the direction that new users don't automatically make new developers.


It would take a user years to develop the kind of ability it takes to advance our compiler, and I agree with your point, you need to have something to keep the experienced users around or newbs aren't going to get anything but newb answers to newb questions.

No, I think that as far as the compiler goes, no additions need to be made to attract beginning programmers. The devlopment of the compiler should be aimed at attracting people who can make good use out of inheritence and virtual functions, and want the full power of a C++ environment.

However, the development of the homepage, could be more geared toward making tutorials and whatnot accessible, and centralizing resources for younger programmers who want to cut their teeth under FB.

Questions are never the problem, though I think a "RTM" or a WAAAYP from time to time is healthy.


I agree, I taught myself to prgram with a manual in one hand while I typed with the other. It was rewarding, I felt proud. I taught myself. I didn't have to ask questions. And if people become dependant on utilizing others to think through problems, that will simply prevent them from remembering what they've learned.

In essence I agree. The compiler should be developed toward attracting experienced programmers. While the resources can be tailored to new programmers.
angros47
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Postby angros47 » Jun 24, 2010 17:08

Well, every advanced programmer has been a newbie. IMHO, newbies should be encouraged: maybe, only 1 of 100 will become a developer, but if we don't train new programmers, nobody will do that for us. That's why I ported minib3d, for example: many newbies are interested in programming because they like playing with computers, and they'd like to build their own videogame: if they have a look at OpenGL API, quaternions, pointers, they will run away, but if they look at a 3d demo done in ten lines, they will at least try... and, after that, they might be interested in learning more.

I particularly like a thing, about FreeBasic: it's "scalable"; it's as easy as QBasic, but, when you learn about pointers, OOP, libraries, external APIs, you can use them: you don't have to switch to C, and re-learn everything, you can stay in FreeBasic, and keep all your code. Inheritance, templates and so on will improve further the compiler, so they should be a priority: but also, we don't have to forget the origin of FreeBasic: a tool to attract newbies, and teach how to write computer programs. The language itself is very good, but the ecosystem around it could be more user-friendly.
marcov
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Postby marcov » Jun 24, 2010 18:16

angros47 wrote: only 1 of 100 will become a developer


You think that is a LOW number? Where do I sign? (jumps in the air)

but if we don't train new programmers, nobody will do that for us.


If none of those new programmers make it to developer, nobody will either.

Chain, weakest link, break.
aurelVZAB
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Postby aurelVZAB » Jun 24, 2010 19:38

Chain or not chain ...
i think that angros point to right thing....
TESLACOIL
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all i know is that

Postby TESLACOIL » Jul 02, 2010 18:13

i want one of these computers for xmas

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VTxyRVmL5c




-------------------------------------------------------------------

for complete virgin coding noobs FB is WAY too complex

Learning basic in a simple self contained environment like a BBC computer is as easy as it gets.

A BBC lets you focus on the code and forget the environment, sadly those days are gone

on a complexity scale

BBC computer = 1
Qbasic on a windows machine = 50
Free basic = 500
C++ VB etc = 1000



just count how many things a human has to make in order to print "hello"

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

it took me 60 seconds from start to finish on a BBC computer AND i had never seen or touched a computer before my only knowledge was from science fiction
they were

power on...(note boot up time of .1 second)

.type print "hello"

....hit enter


took me an hour first time with qbasic & pascal , a day with free basic and 3 days with C++ ferchisakes !

AND that's after 1000s of hours of previous programming experience on a BBC ( ref qbasic)

plus decades of using computers (ref Free Basic and C )

much of this time was spent trying to understand and configure the environment....each environment is filled with endless unique & opaque complexities that defy stepwise logical comprehension....these things must always taught and copied by wrote and present a brick wall to uninitiated eyes

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A noob introduction to free basic would best be done with a website showing numerous screen shots how to install FB and FBIDE, set paths

Spelling these first 100 steps out like a pop up playschool book

"my screen looks like your screen shot "
is a zillion times more reassuring than wading through even the most lucid text

a picture does indeed say a 1000 words

the good thing is once the playschool guide has been completed the lucky dip game of which of the 100+ competing versions of basic should i go for will be made a lot lot easier AND your community will be made stronger down the road

I spent a week of my life surfing researching dloading and trying out various versions of basic.....a week quite frankly wished id spent doing other things....im still feeling burned a month later

never under estimate how tough this world looks too outsiders (you will of course soon forget your own first hand frustrations)

wish list
code examples that are stripped to the ULTIMATE bare minimum

(devoid of embeded complexities !!! including the removal of best practice complexities)

plz tell me why
have i never seen an explanation of how to open a file that doesn't include for next , while end or other junk code that has NADA to do with the ACTUAL keywords im trying to understand ....i give

usefull rant over....i fel muck becka noooow!
segin
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Re: all i know is that

Postby segin » Jul 03, 2010 9:04

TESLACOIL wrote:for complete virgin coding noobs FB is WAY too complex

Really? If you use -lang qb, the learning curve matches DOS QBasic.

The problem today's n00bs have is that they think writing software for some reason or another does not involve a symbolic instruction language, that is, you program with point-and-click form designers and never write code. Ever.

It's pretty much the same as believing CSI: Miami represents true digital forensics.

TESLACOIL wrote:Learning basic in a simple self contained environment like a BBC computer is as easy as it gets.

A BBC lets you focus on the code and forget the environment, sadly those days are gone

on a complexity scale

BBC computer = 1
Qbasic on a windows machine = 50
Free basic = 500
C++ VB etc = 1000



just count how many things a human has to make in order to print "hello"

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

it took me 60 seconds from start to finish on a BBC computer AND i had never seen or touched a computer before my only knowledge was from science fiction
they were

power on...(note boot up time of .1 second)

.type print "hello"

....hit enter


And yet, the beginning of programming in FreeBASIC are exactly that.
Your argument here is that the BASIC environment in the BBC microcomputers is far less complex simply because it provides an interactive interpreter shell with immediate execution. Python provides that very same thing. You can type "python" into your shell, and volia, you have a Python interpreter. You can type Python statements into it, and it'll run each one as you enter it, just like the BASIC in the BBC micro, or an Apple II, or any other common 8-bit microcomputer with built-in BASIC.

TESLACOIL wrote:took me an hour first time with qbasic & pascal , a day with free basic and 3 days with C++ ferchisakes !


It took you an hour with QBasic?! I mean, seriously.

Type in:
print "hello, world!"

press "F5". It runs.

If you argue that it took you an hour to figure out how to run hello world, then your argument then would be that the development environment, not the programming language, is the overly complex system here.

TESLACOIL wrote:AND that's after 1000s of hours of previous programming experience on a BBC ( ref qbasic)

plus decades of using computers (ref Free Basic and C )

much of this time was spent trying to understand and configure the environment....each environment is filled with endless unique & opaque complexities that defy stepwise logical comprehension....these things must always taught and copied by wrote and present a brick wall to uninitiated eyes

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A noob introduction to free basic would best be done with a website showing numerous screen shots how to install FB and FBIDE, set paths

Numerous screen shots? I disagree. A few key screenshots showing the correct end result are good, but the rest you want given as text. Why? Anyone can just follow pictogram instructions, whereas it takes actual thinking for yourself to really program. If they cannot even do the simplest self-thought, then they don't need to be programming, period.

If you think I'm going too far, let me present an old proverb:
Give a man a fish, and he will eat for a day.
Teach a man to fish, and he will eat for life.


That might help you to understand my positioning here a little better.

TESLACOIL wrote:Spelling these first 100 steps out like a pop up playschool book

"my screen looks like your screen shot "
is a zillion times more reassuring than wading through even the most lucid text

As I said above, I agree with this, just not many screenshots.

TESLACOIL wrote:a picture does indeed say a 1000 words

the good thing is once the playschool guide has been completed the lucky dip game of which of the 100+ competing versions of basic should i go for will be made a lot lot easier AND your community will be made stronger down the road

BASIC is fragmented. Period. There's no fixing it, and there were plenty of incompatible versions of BASIC even during the times of the BBC micro. Apple II's has Integer BASIC and AppleSoft BASIC, neither of which was completely compatible with the other. Then you had the Altair with Microsoft BASIC, BBC's microcomputer BASIC, Commodore 64 BASIC, ZX Spectrum BASIC, Nintendo BASIC for the Nintendo Family Computer (or Nintendo Entertainment System, whatever you want to call it)... etc.

You n00bs guide idea, now that I think of it, seems out of the scope of the FreeBASIC philosophy. FreeBASIC seems like a language for people that already know how to program quite well and wish to do so in a BASIC dialect supported by free and open source tools, and the "BASIC" here is just an acronym that refers to a language family and design ancestry, not that it's actually a Beginner's All-purpose Symbolic Instruction Coding language. You've seemed to gotten bitten by the myth that BASIC is only for n00bs and once you know how to code, you abandon it as a relic of your early days. I guess that means you'll also argue that my 1.4GHz Pentium III is faster than a 1.2GHz Core 2 Solo.

TESLACOIL wrote:I spent a week of my life surfing researching dloading and trying out various versions of basic.....a week quite frankly wished id spent doing other things....im still feeling burned a month later

never under estimate how tough this world looks too outsiders (you will of course soon forget your own first hand frustrations)

I learned programming on MS-DOS 6.22 simply by stumbling upon QBASIC. Since I was a Windows user, I quickly found the help file (press F1) and I was off from there. Ohh, and there was no Internet in those days, just a dusty 9600 bps modem and a CompuServe account.

TESLACOIL wrote:wish list
code examples that are stripped to the ULTIMATE bare minimum

(devoid of embeded complexities !!! including the removal of best practice complexities)


Except we've already taken code examples to the bare minimum. Stripping them any further would reduce their usefulness as an example.

TESLACOIL wrote:
plz tell me why
have i never seen an explanation of how to open a file that doesn't include for next , while end or other junk code that has NADA to do with the ACTUAL keywords im trying to understand ....i give

usefull rant over....i fel muck becka noooow!


It's not junk code.
agamemnus
Posts: 1842
Joined: Jun 02, 2005 4:48

Re: all i know is that

Postby agamemnus » Jul 05, 2010 20:22

TESLACOIL wrote:
plz tell me why
have i never seen an explanation of how to open a file that doesn't include for next , while end or other junk code that has NADA to do with the ACTUAL keywords im trying to understand ....i give

usefull rant over....i fel muck becka noooow!


http://www.freebasic.net/wiki/wikka.php?wakka=KeyPgOpen
TESLACOIL
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I would just like to say thanks

Postby TESLACOIL » Jul 06, 2010 5:33

I would just like to say a BIG THANKS to everyone one here
who has given their time to help me get going with Free Basic


My robot now has Free Basic eyes and ears & can speak(not exactly simple code to get right)

And in just 2 weeks from dloading Freebasic for the very first time

That's pretty good going for a noob coder who didnt get much past if then goto
and hasn't coded in anger for 20years

It wasn't just a steep learning curve i faced....more like a sheercliff with an overhang....and with your help i made it to base camp one



i realy cant thank you all enough


Long live Freebasic and all who sail in her !

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