goodbye community

For other topics related to the FreeBASIC project or its community.
Lachie Dazdarian
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Postby Lachie Dazdarian » Jan 05, 2009 3:06

No need to dish FB before leaving, really.

To be honest, I would like to hear your plans.
Deleter
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Postby Deleter » Jan 05, 2009 3:52

Wasn't my intention to "dish fb". Was just writing my observations. My plans are actually intertwined with syn9 and some others, involving c#/++ game development. I also intend to personally pursue Microsoft's XNA with c# as a rapid prototyping tool and to enter a competition I heard about.
counting_pine
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Postby counting_pine » Jan 05, 2009 9:49

That's fine, FreeBASIC isn't the last word in programming concepts, and I certainly won't object to people checking out programming languages further afield. There's only so much growth someone can do in a single language, and there's a lot of ideas and programming techniques that some other programming languages can tech you.

To be honest, I found your comments about FB hurtful, but I don't think you meant to be offensive, and I respect that you were honest.

Regardless, I wish you all the best as you learn new programming skills, and with life in general.
And the same goes out to anyone else who decides to leave the nest. Thanks for being a part of the community :)
Lachie Dazdarian
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Postby Lachie Dazdarian » Jan 05, 2009 21:28

I think some people are a bit naive thinking that the change of language will somehow unleash their developing potentials. I might be wrong, but I really can't remember a game development project that was canceled because "FB couldn't do it".
stylin
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Postby stylin » Jan 06, 2009 2:33

Lachie Dazdarian, this community consists of [I'd guess mostly] hobbyists who program for fun in their free time. It's understandable that one may want to try something different for a while; different syntax, different programming paradigms, etc.

It's also understandable that those who want to play with more traditional OO designs may get frustrated with FB as it is now. You're right; FB is, IMO, much more than a toy language, and virtually anything can be created with it, provided you want to do so using a C-like, procedural design. Yes, "classes" can be created, but without class hierarchies, many of the benefits of OOP simply cannot be taken advantage of without implementing them by hand (which really defeats the purpose of OOP anyway).

Deleter, I wouldn't say the compiler has no direction (it's always been in the TODO, now and forever), nor that the forum is decaying. Lately it seems that the community is acquiring users that have previous programming experience and are excited to use FB. It also seems to me that users are now more willing to get involved in the actual source code more than the last two years; people are looking through it, talking about it, submitting patches, etc. Certainly it was nice when v1ctor, who knew the source in and out, spent tons of time on it and added new things almost every day, but I have to say that the current situation is not as you describe at all. Good luck, though, and happy hacking ! :)
Deleter
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Postby Deleter » Jan 06, 2009 5:02

Lachie Dazdarian wrote:I think some people are a bit naive thinking that the change of language will somehow unleash their developing potentials. I might be wrong, but I really can't remember a game development project that was canceled because "FB couldn't do it".


For me at least its not a change in language, its a change of what I'm doing in which languages. I'm starting to get more serious about my game programming. The one thing that really sucks about coding is rewriting something you've done before. OOP is a real good approach to solving that redundancy. Sure, you can write modular, reusable code in fb, but you can do so even more with oop. It also allows for better structural choices. The other thing about serious (as opposed to hobby) game programming, is that all the real hardcore libs are in c++. If I want to use the Havoc physics engine, I want to spend my effort writing the physics code, not first writing a header, then working on it. And that's assuming whatever library I'm using can be ported to fb.

@stylin, if that is true, then I am glad for fb's sake. I have seen a lot more posts about "do this, do that", I have not seen (nor looked) for changes to the compiler, I figured if it was something major I would hear about it. I'm glad its getting patched etc, I understand cleanup is needed. However it has been a long time since any user-visible features have been added to the oop portion of the compiler. And at this point with the experience I have had in other languages, and with MS's XNA, even if fb were to support oop, the fact C dialects are the main target of major libraries etc is enough of a motivation to move my efforts for the most part over to that language set. I don't intend on erasing fb from my hdd, just on using languages more developed and more suited to my goals.
Gods and Idols
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Postby Gods and Idols » Jan 06, 2009 16:05

Lachie Dazdarian wrote:I think some people are a bit naive thinking that the change of language will somehow unleash their developing potentials. I might be wrong, but I really can't remember a game development project that was canceled because "FB couldn't do it".
Actually, FB has quite a few "dangerous" things about it if you're going to do serious development.
Not the least of which is the incredibly uncertain future of the compiler.
And that code occasionally breaks between releases does not help either. Even if it's just something minor that changes, when your code is several tens of thousands of lines long you don't want to spend days just porting it to get up to date with the latest version of the compiler you're using to actually make what you intended to do from the beginning.

If you do a serious project in FB you need to be aware of the many problems it will bring:
-As mentioned code breaks and the future of FB is always "Unknown"
-If you intend to bring on additional programmers you only have the relatively small pool of FB coders to pick from, mixing languages, while possible, is not a good idea for a large project.
-Several libraries are not ported (Headers translated) and will in fact never be, and porting them yourself may not even be possible due to various incompatibilities with FB and the library language.

On the other hand if you pick C++ for example:
-Clearly defined language that doesn't break if a compiler is updated
-C++ is a well known language with lots and lots of coders, take your pick!
-Most libraries come with C++ headers right off the bat

Obviously I only listed the negative things about picking FB for a serious project, but it should give you an idea.
Saying FB can "do anything!" while technically correct, is not really true.

FreeBASIC as a language is all fine and dandy, but the compiler and community are all but in shambles.
Using other languages for your more serious endeavors seem like a very intelligent decision as things are right now.

And with the rewrite of FB from scratch around the corner there will be even more "downtime" with code being broken and projects needing to be ported to the latest version.

Not a very good use of time when you're doing "serious development"

So yes, using a language other than FB can indeed "unleash" your true potential as you no longer have to worry about keeping your code up to date with an ever changing immature compiler that may or may not "die" at any time. It will also allow you to find other people who can help you more easily since there are more C++ (For example) coders than FB coders.
Not to mention the multitude of available libraries/engines out there, with headers already ported.


And perhaps those big game projects weren't canceled, but in fact never started to begin with, instead being made in C++ or other languages?
rdc
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Postby rdc » Jan 06, 2009 16:40

Well, just to take the counter-point: I plan on doing SOL in FB. SOL will turn out to be a good sized project before it is completed, maybe not massive, but certainly not trivial either. Having done DDD in FB, I expect the project to move along well with no major problems.

I chose FB simply because it has a nice set of capabilities (such as a rich set of graphics functions) built into the language that other programming languages have as add-ons. For me, having a single development package address multiple needs, is cross-platform, is easy to use and easy to deploy, has plenty of depth for just about any task--that is what I define as good development platform, at least in my opinion.
John Spikowski
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Postby John Spikowski » Jan 16, 2009 10:33

Thought I would share with the group what a little effort and cooperation can achieve.

BASIC-COMPILER.COM
v1ctor
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Postby v1ctor » Jan 16, 2009 23:26

Eh? Ever tried to look at the FB's documentation? Everything was done through community cooperation. Try to find a small open-source like this with the same kind of docs.. it won't be easy, trust me.

The same can be said about the examples, tips, headers, demos etc.. if there are something that FB always had are contributors, the list is huge and most are listed in the readme file or in this site.
roook_ph
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Postby roook_ph » Jan 17, 2009 0:06

I thought victor1 is in hiatus or is it the son of victor1?

Ive been to BCX and Im warning you . The language not for hardcore basic coders . The examples and forum are there of course. But the compiler is limited to Win GUI, and unless youre a c programmer you wont understand what those examples do. Lots of broken codes and the compiler relies on third party c compiler some of which produce more broken codes. Then you might as well learn c and skip BCX
Last edited by roook_ph on Jan 17, 2009 23:32, edited 2 times in total.
McLovin
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Postby McLovin » Jan 17, 2009 17:18

John Spikowski wrote:Thought I would share with the group what a little effort and cooperation can achieve.

BASIC-COMPILER.COM

ha ha ha ha, you still here? :)

I love how you Π$/- off every PowerBASIC user, HotBasic user, FreeBasic user and now you're doing the same thing to the BCX users. Poor Kevin Diggins.... he'll learn soon enough that your pushy and arrogant attitude will fragment the BCX community.

All the same, I'm starting to enjoy reading my daily BCX mail list just to see what fireworks Mr. Spikowski will set off next.
roook_ph
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Postby roook_ph » Jan 17, 2009 23:25

There are BCX users here? I have to edit my last post . Dishing other peoples work doesnt sound that good.
John Spikowski
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Postby John Spikowski » Jan 18, 2009 2:10

McLovin wrote:
John Spikowski wrote:Thought I would share with the group what a little effort and cooperation can achieve.

BASIC-COMPILER.COM

ha ha ha ha, you still here? :)

I love how you Π$/- off every PowerBASIC user, HotBasic user, FreeBasic user and now you're doing the same thing to the BCX users. Poor Kevin Diggins.... he'll learn soon enough that your pushy and arrogant attitude will fragment the BCX community.

All the same, I'm starting to enjoy reading my daily BCX mail list just to see what fireworks Mr. Spikowski will set off next.


Say what you like, it doesn't hurt my feelings. At least I don't spend my time whining and wishing and get the job done. Some people don't like me and that's fine. You can't please everyone. I defend my position on issues and don't change my story just because it's not what others want to hear.

I'm proud of my contributions to All Basic, Basic-Compiler and the the ScriptBasic project. I have a good relationship with the key members of this group and that's really all that counts IMO.

John
E.K.Virtanen
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Postby E.K.Virtanen » Jan 18, 2009 6:03

Hey please. Some respect for syn9 here.

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