Edsger W.Dijkstra

Clippy · Post by **Clippy** » Dec 28, 2007 1:46

by Edsger W.Dijkstra

* Programming is one of the most difficult branches of applied mathematics; the poorer mathematicians had better remain pure mathematicians.
* The easiest machine applications are the technical/scientific computations.
* The tools we use have a profound (and devious!) influence on our thinking habits, and, therefore, on our thinking abilities.
FORTRAN --"the infantile disorder"--, by now nearly 20 years old, is hopelessly inadequate for whatever computer application you have in mind today: it is now too clumsy, too risky, and too expensive to use.
* PL/I --"the fatal disease"-- belongs more to the problem set than to the solution set.
* It is practically impossible to teach good programming to students that have had a prior exposure to FREE BASIC: as potential programmers they are mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration.
* The use of COBOL cripples the mind; its teaching should, therefore, be regarded as a criminal offence.
* APL is a mistake, carried through to perfection. It is the language of the future for the programming techniques of the past: it creates a new generation of coding bums.
* The problems of business administration in general and data base management in particular are much too difficult for people that think in IBMerese, compounded with sloppy English.
* About the use of language: it is impossible to sharpen a pencil with a blunt axe. It is equally vain to try to do it with ten blunt axes instead.
* Besides a mathematical inclination, an exceptionally good mastery of one's native tongue is the most vital asset of a competent programmer.
Many companies that have made themselves dependent on IBM-equipment (and in doing so have sold their soul to the devil) will collapse under the sheer weight of the unmastered complexity of their data processing systems.
* Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability.
* We can found no scientific discipline, nor a hearty profession on the technical mistakes of the Department of Defense and, mainly, one computer manufacturer.
* The use of anthropomorphic terminology when dealing with computing systems is a symptom of professional immaturity.
By claiming that they can contribute to software engineering, the soft scientists make themselves even more ridiculous. (Not less dangerous, alas!) In spite of its name, software engineering requires (cruelly) hard science for its support.
* In the good old days physicists repeated each other's experiments, just to be sure. Today they stick to FORTRAN, so that they can share each other's programs, bugs included.
* Projects promoting programming in "natural language" are intrinsically doomed to fail.

vdecampo · Post by **vdecampo** » Dec 28, 2007 2:20

I hope the Admins just delete this rant. It serves no purpose for edification or debate and really is just a cry for attention.

-Vince

DaveUnit · Post by **DaveUnit** » Dec 28, 2007 2:39

what a stupid, meaningless rant.
I feel no smarter having read that.
I bet that "FREE BASIC" was just "BASIC" before.
are you that qb fanboy or someone trashing every language that is isn't C++ (or java)?

badmrbox · Post by **badmrbox** » Dec 28, 2007 2:42

Clippy/Burger likes to complain about FB yes.

notthecheatr · Post by **notthecheatr** » Dec 28, 2007 3:17

<counter-rant>
Agree with my fellow FreeBasicers, this rant is neither useful nor informative. Furthermore, some of its implications are misleading, particularly since it is posted on this forum. FREE BASIC cannot be the same as FreeBASIC, or it would not be included in this article (except by a very uninformed person with regards to FreeBASIC as a language). I'm not sure what the point of this was, but I'll try to address some things I find incorrect or misleading:

Clippy wrote: * It is practically impossible to teach good programming to students that have had a prior exposure to FREE BASIC: as potential programmers they are mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration.

This certainly does not refer to FreeBASIC, to begin with. Even with other versions of BASIC: While I believe certain BASIC variants teach poor programming practice, there is no such thing as a language that can mutilate someone's thinking beyond hope. I started with QBasic and Visual Basic, which teach terrible programming practices, but some time spent with lower level languages (Assembly, BrainF***, etc.) brought me around. And FreeBASIC is just the opposite of the older BASICs in this respect, it requires proper programming everywhere. I cannot think of a way in which FreeBASIC is any less "good programming" than, for example, C.

* Projects promoting programming in "natural language" are intrinsically doomed to fail.

Agreed, good thing FreeBASIC is not a natural language nor is it supposed to be. FreeBASIC is a structured programming language just like C or Pascal, the main difference being that it has a nicer and friendlier syntax but is no less "real programming" than any other commonly used language (including C++/Java/etc.) It is just as modern a language as any other. FreeBASIC is not the same as older BASICs!

Note: Bear in mind also that the article quoted (?) here, being written by E. W. Dijkstra, must have been written several decades ago when BASIC was indeed poor for programming (due to the simple way it had to be implemented on early computers) - BASIC has since grown in many ways, and most modern BASIC variants (not just FreeBASIC, but others as well) are entirely proper for learning programming. GOTO, the main focus of criticism from most BASIC critics, is no longer used much at all.
</counter-rant>

cha0s · Post by **cha0s** » Dec 28, 2007 5:32

No need to delete it, just ignore him. As if we care what some 40 year old sitting in mom's basement thinks about our language. His keyboard-driven paint program will put us all to shame, believe me.

maddogg6 · Post by **maddogg6** » Dec 28, 2007 5:50

cha0s wrote:No need to delete it, just ignore him. As if we care what some 40 year old sitting in mom's basement thinks about our language. His keyboard-driven paint program will put us all to shame, believe me.

That, and, to quote someone/thing without reference to source is not very compelling. (what book/article/manuscript? - his web site has like 1300+ in his 40+ years in this business- not to mention context)

Am I the only one who read it as intended (mostly) for humor on the authors part - I mean - he doesnt like *any* language, or at least its *all* negitive. (the importance of context..)

Besides, Id bet that was written before v1c was born.

KristopherWindsor · Post by **KristopherWindsor** » Dec 28, 2007 6:13

DaveUnit wrote: I bet that "FREE BASIC" was just "BASIC" before.

Obviously - the guy who wrote that died before FB was started:
Original
Translated

- And this comes from a QB quacker who doesn't like FB's advancement to well-structured programming.

cha0s · Post by **cha0s** » Dec 28, 2007 7:17

I just wanted to add

* Simplicity is prerequisite for reliability.

I disagree with this actually, I think it's more of a question of, "how can I efficiently manage this complexity?"

voodooattack · Post by **voodooattack** » Dec 28, 2007 9:08

http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~evans/cs655 ... wd498.html

It is practically impossible to teach good programming to students that have had a prior exposure to BASIC: as potential programmers they are mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration.

Nice try buddy, now shove it and GTFO of this forum please, flamebaits are not welcome here.
If that was intended as a joke, It's not funny (didn't see anyone laughing yet), If not, I'd ban you for a lifetime or two if I had the authority.

fsw · Post by **fsw** » Dec 28, 2007 15:23

This is the 3rd off topic post in 2 days in 1 section.

Is "Off Topic" now disguised as "Community News"?

Just a question...

Hexadecimal Dude! · Post by **Hexadecimal Dude!** » Dec 28, 2007 15:57

It was definitely a joke when Dijkstra told it. What this was intended to be is frankly a mystery. Surely if its from a QB fanatic, it must be light hearted, since QB was several miles closer to the BASIC of Dijkstra's day that FB.

notthecheatr · Post by **notthecheatr** » Dec 28, 2007 17:41

fsw wrote:This is the 3rd off topic post in 2 days in 1 section.

Is "Off Topic" now disguised as "Community News"?

Just a question...

This guy isn't even a regular here, he's just trying to cause problems. Pretty stupid though since his attacks (supposedly coming from the famed E. W. Dijkstra, but not at all tenable in modern times, if ever) don't really apply to FreeBASIC at all.

Lachie Dazdarian · Post by **Lachie Dazdarian** » Dec 28, 2007 18:25

His keyboard-driven paint program will put us all to shame, believe me.

LOL. The best pun ever!

notthecheatr · Post by **notthecheatr** » Dec 28, 2007 19:23

<sarcasm>Wow, I didn't know that Clippy. It makes me feel so bad about using FreeBASIC. Wow, I really respect your opinion Clippy. I wish I were as smart as you.</sarcasm>

Edsger W.Dijkstra

Edsger W.Dijkstra

Re: Edsger W.Dijkstra

Re: Edsger W.Dijkstra

Re: Edsger W.Dijkstra