Resignation

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UEZ
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Re: Resignation

Postby UEZ » Nov 08, 2018 13:21

We had a similar discussion here: viewtopic.php?f=17&t=26943 and my impression is that he has improved a bit in this regard.
marcov
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Re: Resignation

Postby marcov » Nov 08, 2018 14:01

IMHO you can't suspend anybody, even temporary, without a formal warning that the behaviour was unwaranted.
deltarho[1859]
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Re: Resignation

Postby deltarho[1859] » Nov 08, 2018 15:15

UEZ wrote:my impression is that he has improved a bit in this regard.

I will go along with that except I will be more specific by saying he moved a couple of inches when his target was a mile away. <smile>
marcov wrote:IMHO you can't suspend anybody, even temporary, without a formal warning that the behaviour was unwaranted.

That is true in a commercial environment in the UK otherwise you will have the trades unions climbing all over you and you could be hauled in for unfair dismissal by a tribunal. However, I very much doubt that a programming forum member would have available a remedy in the event of their being suspended unfairly.

Personally, I would not, if I was able to, even temporarily suspend anyone unless they had been spoken to privately at least three times with a view to getting the offender to 'toe the line'. If that failed I would then issue a warning that a suspension would be considered. If the offender took no notice of that then a suspension would follow. It goes without saying that whatever protocol is adopted it must be adhered to by the letter. A permanent suspension is a very different matter. To my mind, they should only occur when an outside agency is looking at someone's behavior or would if they knew what was been written. I came to that conclusion when I realized that 'beyond the pale' may mean different things to different people. For an outside agency 'beyond the pale' would be clearly defined.
dodicat
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Re: Resignation

Postby dodicat » Nov 08, 2018 21:59

I had a great philosophical moment about all this a few years ago (when fb various ranks for members), but sadly Pritchard was confused, so it didn't blossom.
https://freebasic.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=22231&p=195032&hilit=%2Apromotion%2A#p195032
marcov
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Re: Resignation

Postby marcov » Nov 09, 2018 10:56

deltarho[1859] wrote:
marcov wrote:IMHO you can't suspend anybody, even temporary, without a formal warning that the behaviour was unwaranted.

That is true in a commercial environment in the UK otherwise you will have the trades unions climbing all over you and you could be hauled in for unfair dismissal by a tribunal. However, I very much doubt that a programming forum member would have available a remedy in the event of their being suspended unfairly.


That it is not legally enforced doesn't justify bans on a whim.

A permanent suspension is a very different matter. To my mind, they should only occur when an outside agency is looking at someone's behavior or would if they knew what was been written. I came to that conclusion when I realized that 'beyond the pale' may mean different things to different people. For an outside agency 'beyond the pale' would be clearly defined.


The only permanent ban we did at lazarus/fpc forum (twice even, we allowed him back, but he persisted and was banned again) was for sb who used the forum as a personal blog posting rants and conspiracy theories which often skirted being a tad racist. He posted updates of his own "projects" several times a day, and then often for multiple live projects (so 10+ "news' posts a day were no exception) and could persist for months that way. After warnings of temporary bans he kept himself in check for a short while, but reverted after days or weeks, even if he had been warned that his account would be removed instantly if he did so.

There was something pathological about it. (for the interested, he also filled the newsgroup comp.lang.pascal.misc with the same drivel, and I suspect he posts it to many forums)
deltarho[1859]
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Re: Resignation

Postby deltarho[1859] » Nov 09, 2018 11:33

marcov wrote:That it is not legally enforced doesn't justify bans on a whim.

I cannot understand the rationale of stating the obvious.
(so 10+ "news' posts a day were no exception) and could persist for months that way.

A clear case of "Admin as weak as dishwater."
Munair
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Re: Resignation

Postby Munair » Nov 09, 2018 17:15

It is my opinion that this forum should be first and foremost about FreeBasic. If you have fun using the compiler then concentrate on that. I had a few bump-ins here too but I will not allow them to spoil the exchange of valuable information and examples. Simply ignore any bullying comments. It's always the wisest thing to do. Once you start returning the favor you will only feed what you dislike most and it will distract you from what FB and this forum have to offer.
deltarho[1859]
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Re: Resignation

Postby deltarho[1859] » Nov 09, 2018 18:11

@Munair

That is excellent advice and in line with what jj2007 and others have written. I don't care what people call me - I really don't. However, I do care how my code is described. It cannot defend itself but I can and came to its rescue when described as being not to be trusted. As a statement that is not binary false but I believe it to be statistically false by a long margin and, therefore, should not have been written.

I read in another thread someone asking why a troll would bother coming to a programming forum. The simple answer to that is that they came here as a programmer and happen to be a troll as well. Since programmers are human beings then it should not be a surprise to find a very small percentage of them enjoy upsetting others or trying to make others angry.

Ignoring trolls is one thing but it is less easy when a troll is wearing a programmer's hat with a troll badge with varying degrees of visibility.

With a strong admin, we wouldn't have to ignore trolls because they will be escorted off the premises in short measure.

It has not gone unnoticed that counting_pine has not shown his face in this thread either to say cheerio to me or to his add his two cents to the discussion on forum moderation. So when it comes to this forum ceasing to be a moderation-free zone you guys should not hold your breath. In a short while, it will cease to matter for me. I have done my best to stir things up but to no avail and I apologize for that - I clearly did not push the right buttons. Having said that members have not exactly been queuing up requesting a modicum of moderation if nothing else. It could be said that programming forums are not democracies. More is the pity. Imagine being able to vote for or against an administrator. A lot of administrators would be shaking in their boots at the thought of that. On the other hand, it gives me a warm glow. <smile>

Now I do not want this thread to go on any longer, it has gone past 1000 views, so will now only respond to well-wishing. There should not be much more of that if any so this thread should shortly go to its rightful place adrift in the ether. <laugh>
marcov
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Re: Resignation

Postby marcov » Nov 09, 2018 18:26

[quote="deltarho[1859]"
I read in another thread someone asking why a troll would bother coming to a programming forum.
[/quote]

Merely speaking for myself, I was interested in another compiler that was not derivative of some *nix project, and was interested in its evolution and choices. Mostly the runtime side of it though.
coderJeff
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Re: Resignation

Postby coderJeff » Nov 10, 2018 0:49

deltarho[1859] wrote:I have done my best to stir things up but to no avail and I apologize for that - I clearly did not push the right buttons.

That's perfect. Thank-you, because I've been thinking that's exactly what you're trying to do. ;)

"Strong Admin" leaves a lot of room for interpretation. And you don't know all the facts. That's no fault of yours and hopefully what I write next will explain.

In a best case scenario, I have about 2 hours a day Monday to Friday available to work on fb, maybe 8 hours each on Saturday & Sunday. At best, I'm looking at fb.net once every 24 hours and maybe twice every 24 hours on weekends. Sometimes that time is not available because I am busy doing other things and it might be several days before I can look at fb.net. That's not an excuse, that's a darn fact. Bottom line is, I spend close to 100% of my free time on FreeBASIC, and I have to prioritize between writing code and resolving disputes on the forums. I won't speak for counting_pine, but it's a similar situation for him, and he can correct me if I am wrong.

Some of fb.net's members seem to have 24/7 available to post. The result of that is disputes requiring moderator attention can escalate quickly before the current admin's have time to respond.

So, this incident started about 5 days ago. In that time, exchanges between myself and counting_pine, approximately 24 hours apart, here's what we've been discussing:
- deltarho as moderator? How will fb.net community respond?
- nominate / elect a new moderator? A member that is truly interested in the job?
- what is the term of the assignment? 6 months? Having a set length for term will allow a graceful exit on good terms if doesn't work out for any reason.
- how much autonomy for this new moderator?
- and so on...

It's not that we don't want to respond, or can't respond, we are constrained by the amount of time available to respond.

----

So to the issue at hand, the thing that caused this, the trust-worthiness of your code.

In my opinion, how people say things matters, but people will say anything potentially. Ignore for a moment how ever MrSwiss expressed himself, because there will always be comments like that, and imagine this is between you and me, and I posed this question:

"I don't know anything about cryptology. How can I trust this code?"

I am not defending MrSwiss, nor am I asking you to excuse his behaviour. I am only asking that we conduct ourselves in a manner that is superior to his.
leopardpm
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Re: Resignation

Postby leopardpm » Nov 10, 2018 2:41

@coderJeff & countingPine and whomever else contributes their time to maintaining FB as well as this forum: I know that myself, as well as many others, sincerely appreciate the countless UNPAID (?) hours you devote to keeping FB going. For myself, i find FB to be very powerful when I need it to be, yet still a language I either 'know' or can easily learn about through the forum and trial & error. This means I have a way to express my programming urges whenever I feel like it, see other peoples code as well as their contributions/criticisms of my own, and pretty much have a 'free' method of endless hours of self-entertainment. I would 'pay' to be a member of this community in order to ensure that it continues - it is worth it to me.
As far as those folks who rub others the wrong way, or are just outright annoying purposely - they are everywhere and always will be... they are part of the 'human condition' and we have to deal with them (or ignore as best we can) everytime we go online, or step outside our homes in real life. I think the only time that a moderator should get involved is when someone makes the forum impossible to use as a communications tool (ie: spamming threads, relentlessly stalking someone, etc) ... most of the rest of the playground antics requires just a shift of perspective on the victim's part - deltarho had some of his code 'insulted' and he took it very personally. Whether he is right in his chosen response and how he let it affect him is purely for him to decide - I know I can get my feathers quite ruffled at times. He has been around the block enough to have experienced this type of behavior from people throughout his life and he will survive it yet again. If you moderators feel that you should get involved, so be it... and if you don't want to spend your time in that manner - that is OK as well. As long as such activities do not decrease your enthusiasm or desire to continue your efforts towards evolving FB into something even more people can enjoy and learn from. There is my 2 cents.... now back to figuring out how to apply A* within the context of a GOAP AI routine, such programming endeavors are my ultimate, and delicious, nemesis!
deltarho[1859]
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Re: Resignation

Postby deltarho[1859] » Nov 10, 2018 7:27

@coderJeff

Yeah, it was never my attention to push as hard as I did - I would have preferred not to but I figured that I had nothing to lose and, of course, it did work.

I, and I am sure many others, were not aware of how much time you put into fb.net. In your best case scenario then you could be looking at 26 hours a week. That is some commitment.

There are a couple of small points that I can come back on but I'll not waste your time except for one.
I am only asking that we conduct ourselves in a manner that is superior to his. [MrSwiss]

Of course, we should and the vast majority of members would not find that a difficult task. However, I sense a permanency of posting availability afforded to MrSwiss and others like him. Needless to say, I am pushing for more than that. A muzzled guard dog is no deterrent to a would-be burglar. I would like to see a point system not dissimilar to penalty points for driving offenses here in the UK. I suspect that with such a system MrSwiss and others like him would have been given a temporary suspension in the nearly two years that I have been a member. I also suspect that many members would mutter to themselves: "About time". My sensing may be wrong.

Anyway, I shall now leave you to it. I doubt that this thread has much life left in it and I shall stick to my guns. In the passage of time you may or may not get back to me. As your president often says "We'll see what happens ..." <smile>

Thanks for taking the time out. I am sure that others appreciated it as much as I did.
counting_pine
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Re: Resignation

Postby counting_pine » Nov 10, 2018 15:28

Speaking for myself, while I regularly contribute in the FB forums, I don't always enjoy moderating in it.
I also find I don't tend to keep up with the longer threads, and that's usually where things get heated, so I feel like it's difficult for me to step in.
I often don't feel I know the best thing to say or do in conflicts, and sometimes it's easier for me to keep out, but that's not very helpful for the other people here.

In our forum, basically Forum Moderators, Site Admins and FBC Developers are treated synonymously. But knowing the FreeBASIC codebase (to a greater or lesser extent) doesn't necessarily make someone good at moderating a forum or looking after the site.
(That's not to say there aren't other important roles in the community, such as writing documentation or helping answer questions, and these ones aren't just open to devs.)
So, there are potentially people on the forum who would be good at moderating in the forum, but who are not interested in developing on the FreeBASIC codebase.

So I think what we are considering doing, is to democratically elect some people within the community, who are willing to oversee things in the community, and keep things peaceful, while still being helpful and friendly for people.
coderJeff
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Re: Resignation

Postby coderJeff » Nov 10, 2018 15:57

The exact statement that caught our attention is this one:
deltarho[1859] wrote:If counting_pine offered me a position as a moderator with HR duties then I would accept it and return.

This is surprising because I can not recall, ever, in this history of the forum, anyone willingly volunteering to moderate the forums. We usually must beg.

Yeah, there needs to be a person or persons to develop the policies, monitor the forums, enforce the policies, and so on. Without this resource probably nothing new will happen. Currently, responding to forum reports is what is available due the limited resources.

I agree, to be fair, election rather than appointment is a good approach.
dodicat
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Re: Resignation

Postby dodicat » Nov 10, 2018 16:07

First things first.
Forum Moderators, Site Admins and FBC Developers and those knowing the FreeBASIC codebase, for the other ordinary members like myself, we need a new official 1.06 build in the NEWS section of the forum.
There are builds I believe hidden in Ides.
I have been stuck with version 1.05 since 20016.
As it stands at the moment, only an elite group of users code with version 1.06 and various flavours of gcc, which is no good really.
(and this can cause arguments e.t.c.)

Then designate moderators.

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